Transcript: PODCAST INTERVIEW: David Blinken of North Flats Guiding

S5, Ep 131: David Blinken of North Flats Guiding

Saltwater guide David Blinken shares insights on fly fishing, mentors, decline in striped bass numbers, and calls for conservation in The Articulate Fly.

2023, Marvin S. Cash
The Articulate Fly
http://www.thearticulatefly.com

In this episode of The Articulate Fly, host Marvin Cash sits down with saltwater guide David Blinken to discuss his journey to the world of saltwater fishing and the challenges facing his fishery off the coast of Long Island. Before diving into the interview, Marvin reminds listeners to spread the word about the podcast and leave ratings and reviews. The episode is sponsored by Norvise. Marvin kicks off the conversation by asking David about his earliest fishing memory, which leads to a discussion about David's introduction to fishing by his father and his first catch at a young age. They then explore David's transition to fly fishing and how it combines art and sport. David highlights the influence of Captain Eddie Whiteman and the importance of mentors in his fly fishing journey. He emphasizes how being a guide has provided him with valuable feedback from different people every day. The conversation delves into the mindset needed for personal growth and success, with a focus on curiosity, learning from failures, and trying new things. David shares the satisfaction he finds in making people happy through his guiding experiences and the sense of belonging he has discovered in fishing. Transparent communication and the lessons learned from clients are also touched upon. The connection between fishing and life is explored, highlighting the role of mentorship, pursuing passions, and cultivating a mindset for personal growth. David discusses his constant improvement as a guide and the unique challenges and rewards of fishing. The importance of feedback and guidance in other industries is examined, and David reflects on his own guiding experiences and continuous learning. The conversation moves to fly fishing on the flats of Long Island and Martha's Vineyard, and how David's understanding of the fishery has deepened through studying tides, temperatures, and depths. They talk about the patience required in fishing and the value of appreciating the experience and surroundings, even on slow days. David shares that he ties his own flies and discusses his guiding routine, as well as off-season activities and the different species he targets. The episode concludes with David mentioning his show, Masters of the Fly, which features fly tiers and their experiences fishing with their own flies. Positive feedback has been received from both fly tiers and listeners about their experiences in fly tying. David emphasizes the importance of tying flies that mimic the environment being fished in, considering color and size. He highlights the connection between the flies tied and the fishing environment. Marvin agrees and adds that fishing experience is crucial for effective fly tying and design. David talks about Masters of the Fly being a visual podcast started during COVID, aiming to provide guest speakers and fly tiers for the fly fishing community. They discuss past and upcoming episodes, as well as themes related to conservation and fishery management. The recent decline in striped bass numbers and related issues are examined, with David and Marvin advocating for a healthy and robust fishery and sharing their strategies for supporting this cause. The importance of responsible fishing practices, catch and release, and re-educating clients are discussed. The episode concludes with a call to action for listeners to make their voices heard, join relevant associations, and support ongoing research through the GotOne app. David's contact information is provided, and the episode wraps up with Marvin expressing excitement for future multi-part series featuring David. Listeners are encouraged to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast and visit the Norvise website.

Generated Shownotes

Chapters

0:00:04 Introduction
0:03:07 Learning from Guide Experience and Feedback
0:08:06 Gratification and Joy in Making People Happy Through Fishing
0:11:51 Desire to Become a Guide and Share the Experience
0:18:22 Lack of Transparency and Guidance in the Workplace
0:22:05 Failing Quickly and Bouncing Back
0:26:06 Intense Fishing Experience: Adrenaline Rush and Excitement
0:27:25 Freshwater Fishing Etiquette vs. Saltwater Freedom
0:30:51 Expertise in Chasing Fish on the Flats
0:33:26 Taking the Time to Appreciate the Experience
0:40:28 A Day in the Life of a Fishing Guide
0:47:43 The Different Types of Fishing
0:57:33 Conservation and Fishery Management Issues
1:02:05 The Complexity of Fisheries Management
1:02:38 Desire for Striped Bass vs. Sacrifices and Restrictions
1:03:38 The Impact of Not Heeding Warning Signs
1:07:57 Catch and Release: Respecting the Resource
1:10:59 GotOne App

Long Summary

In this episode of The Articulate Fly, host Marvin Cash sits down with saltwater guide David Blinken to discuss his journey to the world of saltwater fishing and the challenges facing his fishery off the coast of Long Island. Before diving into the interview, Marvin reminds listeners to spread the word about the podcast and leave ratings and reviews. The episode is sponsored by NorVice. Marvin kicks off the conversation by asking David about his earliest fishing memory, which leads to a discussion about David's introduction to fishing by his father and his first catch at a young age. They then explore David's transition to fly fishing and how it combines art and sport. David highlights the influence of Captain Eddie Whiteman and the importance of mentors in his fly fishing journey. He emphasizes how being a guide has provided him with valuable feedback from different people every day. The conversation delves into the mindset needed for personal growth and success, with a focus on curiosity, learning from failures, and trying new things. David shares the satisfaction he finds in making people happy through his guiding experiences and the sense of belonging he has discovered in fishing. Transparent communication and the lessons learned from clients are also touched upon. The connection between fishing and life is explored, highlighting the role of mentorship, pursuing passions, and cultivating a mindset for personal growth. David discusses his constant improvement as a guide and the unique challenges and rewards of fishing. The importance of feedback and guidance in other industries is examined, and David reflects on his own guiding experiences and continuous learning. The conversation moves to fly fishing on the flats of Long Island and Martha's Vineyard, and how David's understanding of the fishery has deepened through studying tides, temperatures, and depths. They talk about the patience required in fishing and the value of appreciating the experience and surroundings, even on slow days. David shares that he ties his own flies and discusses his guiding routine, as well as off-season activities and the different species he targets. The episode concludes with David mentioning his show, Masters of the Fly, which features fly tiers and their experiences fishing with their own flies. Positive feedback has been received from both fly tiers and listeners about their experiences in fly tying. David emphasizes the importance of tying flies that mimic the environment being fished in, considering color and size. He highlights the connection between the flies tied and the fishing environment. Marvin agrees and adds that fishing experience is crucial for effective fly tying and design. David talks about Masters of the Fly being a visual podcast started during COVID, aiming to provide guest speakers and fly tiers for the fly fishing community. They discuss past and upcoming episodes, as well as themes related to conservation and fishery management. The recent decline in striped bass numbers and related issues are examined, with David and Marvin advocating for a healthy and robust fishery and sharing their strategies for supporting this cause. The importance of responsible fishing practices, catch and release, and re-educating clients are discussed. The episode concludes with a call to action for listeners to make their voices heard, join relevant associations, and support ongoing research through the GotOne app. David's contact information is provided, and the episode wraps up with Marvin expressing excitement for future multi-part series featuring David. Listeners are encouraged to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast and visit the NorVice website.

Brief Summary

In this episode of The Articulate Fly, I sit down with saltwater guide David Blinken to discuss his journey to the world of saltwater fishing and the challenges facing his fishery off the coast of Long Island. We explore his transition to fly fishing, the importance of mentors, and the mindset needed for personal growth. We also discuss fly tying, fishing techniques, and the decline in striped bass numbers. Tune in for valuable insights and a call to action for conservation.

Tags

The Articulate Fly, saltwater guide, David Blinken, journey, saltwater fishing, challenges, fishery, Long Island, fly fishing, mentors, mindset, personal growth, fly tying, fishing techniques, decline, striped bass, conservation

Edit Transcript Remove Highlighting Add Audio File Stop Play-on-click

Save Editor Export HTML Export PDF Export WebVTT Export... ?

Transcript

Introduction

Intro:
[0:04] Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of the Articulate Fly.
On this episode, I'm joined by saltwater guide David Blinken.
David shares his journey to the salt, his fishery off of Long Island, and some of the challenges it's facing today.
I think you're really going to enjoy this one. But before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items.
If you like the podcast, please tell a friend, and please subscribe and leave us a rating and review in the podcatcher of your choice. It really helps us out.
And a shout out to this episode's sponsor. This episode's sponsored by our friends at NorVice.
Their motto is, Tide Better, Flies Faster, and they produce the only vice that truly spins.
The holidays and show season are just around the corner. Head over to www.nor-vice.com, today to find the perfect gift for the tire on your list.
And if you'll be in the Somerset, New Jersey area on November 11th or 12th, swing by the International Flytying Symposium and spend some time with the great folks at NorVice.
Now on to our interview.

Marvin:
[1:11] Well, David, welcome to the Articulate Fly. Well, thank you.

David:
[1:16] It's good to be here.

Marvin:
[1:18] Yeah, I'm really looking forward to our conversation and we have a tradition on the articulate fly. We like to ask all of our guests to share their earliest fishing memory.

David:
[1:28] Wow, my earliest fishing memory is probably, might be in a backyard pond, when I was, I don't know, probably five or six years old, and I was rummaging through a cloth, and again, and I found all these long skinny things with reels, and I had no idea what to do with it.
So my father put one together for me and took me into the backyard and, uh, and, uh, I could see pigs swimming along and, uh, I think one of my first cats, I got a large mouth and no pun intended. I was hooked after that.
You know, you never forget the first of a fish you ever catch.
That one, I remember the clearest day, even though it was, even though I was six years old.

Marvin:
[2:12] Yeah. That's, uh, that's awesome. And so when did you come to the dark side of fly fishing?

David:
[2:19] Dark side. There is no dark side of fly fishing, really.
Fly fishing is kind of the melding of art and sport and anything you can do with the fly rod if you really are truly committed to it is sort of a wonderful thing.
Some people just... They're fly rodding versus fly fishing using, you know, using, you know, you know, going for, you know, doing bait and switch, you know, other people are doing, using sinking lines.
Some people who dry fly fish are like dry or die. It's all good.
It's all good. I think there's really no, there's no dark side.
It's all, it's all the light.

Learning from Guide Experience and Feedback

Marvin:
[3:07] And so, you know, you've, uh, you've been walking on the path for, for a while, fly fishing. Who are some of the folks that have mentored you on your fly fishing journey and what have they taught you?

David:
[3:16] You know, it's really interesting. I can't really pick out a mentor per se, but there's a couple of people in my mind who really stand out, who really influenced me, and probably first and foremost over the years would have been Captain Eddie Whiteman down in Isla Morada.
I think Eddie lives in Tavernier now, but you know, the first time I carpented with him and my father, I learned more in those first five days with Eddie than I think I learned collectively my previous 28 years of life.
It was just an incredible learning experience. I mean, I've been using a fly rod since I was six years old.
And I had a lot of experiences and I'm doing different things, but there were certain nuances that I really, I don't think I fully grasped and Probably more saltwater-wise than freshwater-wise, and wow, Eddie really drove it home.
It was pretty incredible. And I remember saying, I'm going to do this for a living, and Eddie said, don't say that on the boat with me. Your father will never hire me again.
I'll never forget that. I was laughing hysterically.

Marvin:
[4:37] Yeah, but it's interesting because you and I are roughly the same vintage, and so we We kind of had to learn this stuff kind of pre-internet.

David:
[4:46] Absolutely. I mean, I was lucky. I got to, way back, I got a little experience fishing with Al Cootie, and Al and I were friendly.
Lou Tavery, these are people who you're lucky enough to meet over the years.
Fished with me, and some of them went and got our Federation of fly fishing casting certification.
The organization has a different name now.
And Lou taught me a couple of things, and we'd stayed in touch over the years on and off. But I would, say my greatest, probably not having a mentor, but being a guide, all the feedback you get as a guide from being with different people every day, that's invaluable.
That taught me more about how to fit, more how to work with people, more how to open my mind up to different things in fly-fitting than any one person I've ever had teaching me things.

Marvin:
[6:04] Yeah, it's funny you say that. I spent a little bit of time visiting with a friend who was running a guide school this past weekend in Western North Carolina and we were talking about that kind of constraint of having to fish through someone else who may not be, you know, the type of angler you are and like how that actually helps you become a much better angler, a much better teacher.

David:
[6:27] Yeah, I mean, as a guide, you're on the back of the boat.
I like to be on a push-pull more than anything when I'm guiding.
You know, some people guide out of boats and use electrics and stuff like that.
But there's a certain intimacy that you get being on pole and working with people.
And it's a team.
Flyfishing, shallow water flyfishing, as a guide, it's really the most cooperative thing you can do.
And you really need to gel quickly with your angler and the bow.
And once you make that connection with the angler, however you figure out how to make that connection, you know, once all those things sort of fall into place, you know, it gets very exciting and people are learning and people are feeling each other and it's, you know, communication gets easier. It's really interesting. Yeah.

Marvin:
[7:25] It's neat you say that because I always, you know, want to, you know, when I fish with a guide, I always want to be an extension of them and be able to, you know, do what, they've done all this work to put me on the fish and I want to be able to kind of execute. So I think when that happens, it's pretty killer.

David:
[7:42] It is. Someone once said to me, you're doing all the fishing, all I'm doing is casting the rod.
I thought that was kind of interesting. It was sort of telling, but sure, I'd love to feel the fish tug, tug the line, but boy, it's really gratifying.

Gratification and Joy in Making People Happy Through Fishing

[8:06] It's gratifying to make people happy and to give them a great day out there.
And, you know, they get off the boat and they're all smiles and, and, you know, and, you know, they're going to have a good night's sleep because they caught a few fish and, and, and, and they got to see things they might not normally see.
I mean, I literally got off my skiff like 40 minutes before you and I got on tonight and, and, um, we fished until sunset tonight.
It was a tough day, it was a really tough day. And we're fighting, trying to find fish earlier in the day, and we had sort of an incoming tide that was really slow to stop and really slow to get going, fall.
And finally at around 3, 3.30, things started to happen.
And then we got into this tiny little backwater where maybe went into a creek, the creek couldn't have been more than 15, 20 feet wide and all of a sudden we've got waves of dripers coming out and it all came together in that one moment and we had gripers up in the grass and they're feeding on, I don't know what they were feeding on, shrimp.
I could see some baitfish jumping out and I mean, both of us, when we came back from this experience, me and my sport, Steve, We just were both completely faded and intolated all at the same time. It was incredible.

Marvin:
[9:34] Yeah. That's really neat. And, you know, we had a really great conversation kind of planning the interview and, you know, one of the things we talked about was, you know, how fishing became a safe place for you when you were growing up.
And I was wondering if you would mind kind of sharing what you meant by that with our listeners. Sure.

David:
[9:52] Sure, I mean, we all have, so many people have issues, one way or another.
I had the unfortunate or fortunate experience growing up of having a severe learning disability.

[10:10] And I feel for a lot of people, now they call it learning differences.
When I was growing up, it was dyslexia or learning disability or however they want to call it. It doesn't matter. You know, it takes away your confidence that you can't read, and I couldn't really read until I was in seventh grade.

[10:28] I had a particular intelligence for the outdoors.
And there's this great psychologist named Gardner, and Gardner talks about multiple intelligences, and math smart, and nature smart, and all these different things.
Anyway, I guess I had the nature smart one, and I felt very at home in the outdoors.
Fishing, I really capitalized on and it gave me the confidence to keep pushing forward to learn how to read and kind of stay out of trouble and it was something to look forward to.
And you know, if I didn't have fishing and also another sport that I really enjoy skiing, if I didn't have those things, boy, I can't imagine what kind of a person I would have been growing up not having those kind of outlets and I was very fortunate that I was able to experience those because people who are impoverished or just don't know what direction they want to go in may not have those opportunities.
I'm very grateful that I did and so I try to give back as often as I can because I had this opportunity and I was allowed to fish.
It's a wonderful thing.

Desire to Become a Guide and Share the Experience

Marvin:
[11:51] Yeah, and was that kind of the kind of the germ or the foundation of your desire to become a guide, kind of being able to share that piece with other people?

David:
[12:00] You know, I think so. I think, you know, it didn't really formulate my head till college.
It's, you know, you know you love it and you want to do it all the time and And when you're really young, you don't know that you can do it for a living.
And then, you know, you watch things like American sportsmen or chasing silver or stuff like that.
And that came well after I was, you know, more mature, I would already been a guy by the time that came up, but you know, things like you're watching American sportsmen and, and, and, and Mark and saltwater journal and stuff like that.
And you're like eight, nine and 10 years old. and you're like, well, these guys are guides, and they're making money at it.
That's kind of cool. And by the time I got to college, I realized it's something maybe I do want to do, but I would never say it out loud because everybody in my family were these incredible overachievers.
And far be it for me to be a fishing guide when everybody else is doing much more heady things.
But eventually, I closed my eyes and said, what is it that you really want to do after, you know, having a couple of failed careers and not really liking the direction I'm going.
Get back to your roots. Do what you love.
Don't make it recreation. Make it a vocation.

Marvin:
[13:23] Yeah, because I think you started your guide service, what, when you were 29 or 30? Something like that?

David:
[13:30] I think something like that, 1996. I did a little guiding up on the Delaware there, for El Cuchi, for a couple of springs.
I like the trout thing and I like guiding up there, but I really kind of wanted to do my own thing.
I was very close to saltwater. That was really a lot of the fishing I did.
Two of my grandparents lived on Martha's Vineyard and I spent a lot of time growing up there and loved the fishing there long before, I mean, I was in Long Island too with my parents, but I was really influenced by the fishing in Martha's Vineyard in so many different ways.
And that did bring me, eventually it brought me home, as I would say, to what I do now.

Marvin:
[14:26] And do you mind sharing a little bit more about your journey and kind of how you got to the jumping off place when you were 29 or 30?

David:
[14:34] Yeah, I mean, I had been, you know, I, before that I was, you know, an assistant producer in advertising and then I started producing and directing some smaller commercials and I just, I kind of was tiring of being in the office and all the, you know, pressures, not self-driven pressures, but outside pressures to do certain things.
And I think maybe my learning disability may have had an effect on me there, so I stopped doing that.
And I started... I worked at Orvis for a while, and then I moved on to Eddie Bauer, where they had me helping run something called the board shop division and I was doing that in the East Coast for them.

[15:31] And while I was doing that, I was taking my Coast Guard exam.
I was like, I just can't be in a store.
I left advertising because I didn't want to be in an office and being in a store was almost as bad, even though it was a wonderful company to work for when I did.
So I started getting my Coast Guard license, and then one summer I bought a boat and I sort of stuck my toe in the water saying, let me see if this is going to work.
And by my second summer, I was already 75, 80% booked for between May and the end of October.
And I was like, this is going to work. So one day I walked into Eddie Bauer and I said, thank you.
It's been a nice ride, but this is what I'm doing full-time, and I wish I'd just taken the 65 sick days that I didn't know I had.

Marvin:
[16:23] Yeah, you could have scouted a little bit more water, right?

David:
[16:29] Yeah, that's right. That's right. But that that kind of yeah, that was sort of that was sort of it and and there was, you know, a little bit of emotional pushing on my part, um, you know, certain things don't come easy for me and and Change is not always so easy, but um, I always like in my life.
I always hit these little doorways that Where i'm like, you know, you got to go through it If you don't, you're going to regret it.

Marvin:
[16:59] Yeah. And how did it feel when you kind of realized that you had kind of connected those dots and you were able to kind of align your life with your passion?

David:
[17:08] You know what? I was super happy.
You know, it gave me a sense of freedom and emotional freedom.
And here you are, you're plainly doing what you love to do.
And you know some people get to do it earlier in life.
For me it was you know it was around age 29-30 and I just said to myself wow I'm so lucky to be here and I don't think I've ever worked harder in my life than when I finally started to become a guide and really appreciate how lucky I was.

Marvin:
[17:56] Yeah, it's a phenomenal thing. I mean, I think, you know, it's always kind of amazed me to be around really talented people that didn't feel like they had very much agency over their lives.
Um, and to basically, you know, spend your entire career doing something you really don't like, um, you know, when if you could just kind of muster the courage up and make it happen, you could do it. You know what I mean?

Lack of Transparency and Guidance in the Workplace

David:
[18:22] Yeah, I do. I do. It's like, um, you know, when you're working like in an ad agency or something, you know, people, people, I think this is the thing for me. I think people lack transparency.
And people are always holding things very close to the vest.
And when you're trying to work, like in an ad agency, if you're doing something right, it would be nice for somebody to...
It doesn't... You know, it's not reality, but it'd be nice for somebody to tell you you did a good job.
But if you're doing something wrong, it would be nice for someone to just come up and kind of put their hand on your shoulder and say, shoulder and say, you know, why don't you try changing this and you'll be much better.
And I think it's such a cutthroat world out there in many ways, people just don't want to do that and you find yourself kind of floating in space, not knowing what direction to go because somebody wasn't willing to give you the proper direction.
So even then, I mean, I had a wonderful person who I worked for in advertising, who aimed to be as close to a mentor as possible, but I just didn't get the full benefit of it.

[19:39] But I would say, going full circle back to the mentor thing, I would say every single client I've ever had has been a mentor because of what I learned from, as I said earlier, I learned from all these different people and and it just made me a much better guide and and I would say, Maybe, you know, I don't know if I'm a good guide, but I can tell you in my heart and in my head, I'm better.
I'm better today than I was yesterday, and I was better yesterday than I was the day before, and so on. I mean, the learning process is ever going, and, you know, it just doesn't stop, and each day is a different experience.
I mean, you know, the fifth rule, we're just out there trying to have a little fun with them.
So, you know, you get out there and you're with a client and, you know, they may be in a certain mood, you might be in a certain mood, the fish are always in a certain mood, and you're just, you know, you're picking up all these things as you go along and it just doesn't stop.

Marvin:
[20:49] Yeah, I think that, you know, that posture of curiosity and kind of hunger is so incredibly important, right?
Yeah. to not be, you know, some of my old work colleagues, we used to joke about the race to the sofa, right?
And I think that way to be in the world can lead to some, you know, it can be incredibly frustrating, right?
I think you and I talked the last time we spoke to Prep for the interview about, you know, when you do things that way, you know, a lot of days the wind is blowing really, really hard in your face, but every now and then you get some wind at your back and it feels pretty good.

David:
[21:29] It does. It does. I mean, both metaphorically and literally.
I mean, you know, as I said earlier, we were having a really tough day today.
And finally, I just pulled the plug on what we were doing. I said, you know, we're going somewhere else.
And, you know, we had a dead, we had a dead boat tide in the evening.
And I went way up into a creek, dragging the belly of my boat.
And here we are finding fish.
Don't be afraid to try something new or experiment.

Failing Quickly and Bouncing Back

[22:05] When you have enough confidence in your ability, and when you have that confidence, it allows you to try a new thing or go to places where normally there's not fish here on this tide, but let's see what happens.
And we went back there half an hour before sunset, and we really got rewarded.
It was quite an experience. And I think, you know, I can say that about tonight, but I can say that about, you know, a lot of things.
You know, for example, every so often I'll have a client who I fish with a lot, and I'll say to them, you want to do the usual, or do you want to go someplace different?
You want to try new places and new gear and new flies.
And I love it when they're open-minded and we kind of connect on that level.
And you're not always successful, but you always have a great time.

Marvin:
[23:03] Yeah, and I think to kind of go with that curiosity too, you know, cultivating that posture, and it's really difficult, I think, in today's environment to learn how to fail quickly.

David:
[23:12] Yes, yeah, absolutely.
I mean, the, the one thing that happens when you do hell quickly is it's just like striking out in baseball, you know, don't let, don't let that one time at the plate gets you down.
You know, you know, you've, you've got many more, you know, you've got many more times to get up to the plate and bat today.
So, you know, if you fail quickly today or you fail quickly in the morning, you know, just, you know, shake it off and get back, get back there, you know, and, and, and, uh, get the bat in your hand and start swinging again.
You know, you got three strikes and four balls. Take care, take advantage of all of them.

Marvin:
[23:57] But yeah, most good hitters are hitting, you know, in the 300. So there you go.

David:
[24:02] That's right. And, and all the 300 hitters strike out every game.
They either pop out or strike out every game, but they're still, they're still batting 300. So that's something they, they just shake it off.
You know, you have trips every season where you might get the skunk and, and you know, people who know, know that, that, that can happen.
And, you know, unfortunately in striper, if they're in the Northeast, it might be happening more and more to some people because, you know, the numbers of bass have just dropped precipitously, but, you know, with enough experience and enough time on the water that even with lower numbers of fish, those experiences happen fewer and fewer times. Yeah.

Marvin:
[24:51] And also, too, I wanted to get back to the mentorship thing because it's one of those things that I'm absolutely obsessed about, right? And I think it's an absolute force multiplier.

David:
[25:01] I think being generous with your time with people that want to learn is like one of the greatest things you can it's really kind of the most valuable thing you can give us your time right yeah I worked with them with the group in New York actually helped start it but I really I didn't really help start it but I was on the ground floor called veteran anglers of New York and a good friend of mine two friends of mine rich and Tamar Franklin, um, guarded it.
And I got a call from them and they said, you know, we need a, you know, some casting instructors and I was like, count me in and we were working with veterans, um, with PTSD, um, and we were using Y casting is the vehicle to get them through that.
And eventually we started taking some of these people on trips and, and, and I And I remember one trip, we took some, I don't know, six or seven of these guys to the Bahamas bone fishing.

Intense Fishing Experience: Adrenaline Rush and Excitement

[26:06] And there was one particular guy, Andy.
And Andy, if you're listening, you know it's you. And we took them fishing, forgive the Bahamas, we took them fishing out of Montauk and we had an all day long blitz of albies and stripers.
And he said to me at the end of the day, which I couldn't relate to, but I understood.
He said when his adrenaline went off fishing that day, he said it was almost like being under fire when he was in the middle of the fleet. And I was like, what?
It was like, it was, it's crazy, uh, you know, just, you know, the hair was up in the back of my neck. I felt the excitement, like everything was just crackling.
And I was like, I was like, really? And he's, he was like, yes.
And I couldn't relate to the, you know, under fire thing, but I couldn't relate to the excitement of the moment.
Um, and you know, we had, you know, teaching them how to cast was one thing, teaching them how to appreciate being in the moment fishing.
That's a whole different story.

Marvin:
[27:13] Yeah, that's fantastic. And, you know, kind of curious, David, too, kind of how did the salt win your heart over freshwater?

Freshwater Fishing Etiquette vs. Saltwater Freedom

David:
[27:25] It's hard to say. I still love freshwater, and I think I just keep freshwater for me.
I think, you know, I've I've had a...
It's not that I've had negative experience with freshwater fishing, but when you're on the stream or on a river, you can't always be alone.
And there's times when I've been working a glide or a riffle and a nice run where it tails out. You know, very often that's sort of the sweet spot, but you want to work your way down to these things.
And I'll be out on the river and people just like walk right out into the middle is they can see us working our way down and and i'm just like Wow, why did you do that?
Uh, you know i'm with somebody and we're clearly working our way down You know to to the tail out of this thing and and you just walk right in And this happened to me a whole number of times.
It even happens to me personally um when when i'm fishing and and you know I think it's just, I'll give people the benefit of the doubt, they just don't know any better.
And it takes time on the water before you develop proper etiquette.

[28:43] So I was like, all the times I've been saltwater fly fishing, I've just been out there alone. I can get away from it all.
And my experiences in Martha's Vineyard, growing up as a kid, very comfortable in the salt.
It was sort of a natural evolution for me.
And I still love trout fishing and largemouth bass fishing and doing that.
But I'll do that for me because if somebody walks into my pool and I'm alone, it doesn't bother me. If I'm guiding somebody, I might get very upset and I don't want that to happen.
And in saltwater, I can just pull the boat in another direction and get away from somebody if they're in my way or someplace or somebody drives the boat onto a flat that I'm on.
I can just pay them no mind and just put my motor down and drive somewhere else and find another place.
Yeah, it's a certain amount of freedom in the saltwater.

Marvin:
[29:56] Yeah, I'll confess, I walk quite a bit to get away from people when I'm fishing for trout. Yeah.

David:
[30:02] I mean, I've been known, like, you know, this past summer I'm visiting my dad in Idaho and I'm fishing all the usual spots and finally there were a whole bunch of people in a few spots I wanted to go to.
So I finally drove my car to a trailhead and walked a mile and a half upriver where I knew nobody would be and I had a beautiful, I don't know, three-quarters of a mile long stretch of river where there was not another person and I got to catch a few fish.

Marvin:
[30:36] Yeah, it doesn't get much better than that. And I understand too that you sort of developed an expertise kind of in Long Island and kind of up around Martha's Vineyard for chasing fish on the flats. How did that come about?

Expertise in Chasing Fish on the Flats

David:
[30:51] Well, you know, when I started my business, I was based out of the Hamptons in Long Island.
I'm very fortunate that there's a family home here, so I could base my business out of here.
Even though my grandparents are long gone, I was still spending time up on Martha's Vineyard.
But I really started to study the water differently in Long Island, and it was post-moratorium, and there were loads and loads...
You could pretty much go anywhere you wanted on the east end of Long Island in the mid to early 90s, and walk away with loads of fish every day.
It really was not a huge effort to find fish.
And because there were so many fish, it kind of allowed you to just go far and wide and fish in places that you might not even think there would be fish.

[31:55] And that experience of that kind of freedom, because the numbers were so huge, allowed me to get into study tides, water temperatures, water depths, figure out some of the spawning areas that stripers spawn in, because we do have a local spawning population of fish out here.
It's kind of been decimated over the past 10 years, but I was able to locate some spawning areas where I was able to find some really big fish in some really small places.
And doing all that in a skiff on the pole really gives you a more intimate understanding.
I'm not just out there drifting and rips.
I would say 90% of the fishing I do is probably within 100 feet of shore, or maybe even 50 feet.

[32:58] And that really gives you an intimate understanding of the area you're fishing and how to fish it. And of course time on the water is everything.
So I started in 1996 and now 2023 soon to be 2024 and as much as I've learned here, I'm still learning. You know, it's just...

Taking the Time to Appreciate the Experience

[33:26] Taking the time to understand and don't be quick.
I say to a lot of my clients who are casting, I say very often when they're rushing their cast, rushing is a waste of time. You just think cast will fall apart. And same thing about learning an area and how to fish it.
You know, rushing through is a waste of time.
Sometimes you have to take the time to really feel it out and look, look really closely, look deeply.
I don't know if that explains it to you, but that's how I approach it.

Marvin:
[34:05] No, I mean, I get it. And it's an interesting thing.
And I find probably, I don't know, gosh, maybe in the last five to seven years, I'm a much more patient angler, right?
The sense of, um, I've never been a fish counter, right.
But, but I, um, but I'm, you know, there are so many other things other than just catching the fish that make the day special, uh, and just learning things.
Right. And, you know, even back, you know, you were talking about this skunk days, you know, I always tell kind of newer anglers, I said, even on days you get skunked, you learn all kinds of stuff, right.
Like how to deal with your gear, how to tie your knots.
And so, you know, even if you don't, you know, I have to kind of believe the hard days, you know, if you go on just whack fish, I don't know that you learn a whole lot.
But yeah, I mean, it makes a lot of sense to me.

David:
[34:58] Yeah, if it was easy, if it was easy, I don't think any of us would do it, you know.
I mean, the challenge is so good. There's days where there's fish all over the place and they're just not eating and you want to crack the code so bad and you're going through the box or you're changing the leader, changing the retrieve, you know, you're doing whatever you can to crack the code.
That those tough days when you're seeing fish but they're not eating really well, I think those are the most interesting, fun days there are.

Marvin:
[35:33] Yeah, I would definitely not fly fish if it was easy, right?
And I mean, I, you know, for me, it's one of those things like I'm wound relatively tightly.
And so, and so for me, one of the things that attracted me to fly fishing was a problem I couldn't consistently solve.
Because kind of in my work life, you know, you just basically put more time and mental energy into it and you just crack the egg.
And so that, yeah, I would 100% have zero interest in fly fishing if it was easy.

David:
[36:10] Yeah, I mean, I was just thinking when you were talking, I have a lot of compassion for fish counters because they're gonna be disappointed a great deal of the time because they're not taking the time to look around.
I mean, yeah, we all wanna catch fish and that's why we're doing it, but I would say The process, the process and the buildup is what gives us all that gratification once we finally get a fish.
And very often while I'm on pole, I've got my camera dangling around my neck, and it's not a light camera, it's not an iPhone.
You know, I've got a DSLR with a 300 millimeter lens dangling around my neck very often.
And sometimes there's things that come up, and you gotta let the camera do its job, and it allows you to express yourself.
And then at the end of the day, You know, you show, you know, you show the picture to the client, you're like, you want a copy of it?
You know, this was your day. They might not have caught a fish, but they're getting a beautiful photo because You know, we're taking the time to appreciate where we are.

Marvin:
[37:24] It's not just, you know, it's not just about, you know It's not just about ripping lips Yeah, it's it's interesting because on this trip I just got back from we were we were fishing mice and I think one night we were out, um until three in the morning and the other night midnight and And, you know, that is not a high probability game by any stretch of the imagination.

David:
[37:45] No.

Marvin:
[37:47] And so, you know, it's really kind of, you know, you might as well say you're going to – trying to go out and catch lightning in a bottle.
But, you know, it's interesting all the things that we saw in the sense of, you know, the wildlife and just the experience of being on the river in the dark.
And I don't know. It's an interesting thing. And so I guess, you know, for me, I guess where I am on my fly fishing journey is I just want to be able to catch fish the way I want to catch them.

David:
[38:11] Yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember a few years ago, I was in Belize and we spent until like seven, eight at night, one night.
And we decided to take the, um, the panga up the river directly to camp instead of, you know, going into town where we normally have a car pick us up.
When we're going up the river and it's pitch black and the guide knows where he is, I'm like, and a big, zaggy, windy river. I have no idea what's going on.
And then all of a sudden the trees are lighting up on opposite sides of the river and I'm like, And we've got groups of fireflies in a tree on one side of the river, lighting up an entire tree and the fireflies across the river are answering them, flashing back at them.
We didn't catch a permit that day. We didn't catch a single fish that day.
I will never trade that experience of seeing the fireflies do that display.
I would have rather seen those fireflies doing that than catch three permits that day. It was just incredible.
It's an amazing experience. Yeah.

Marvin:
[39:20] I mean, there are experiences like that. And then you always have these really kind of interesting, kind of serendipitous encounters with other anglers and other people, right?
You know, it's just always amazing, like whether you bump into them at the gravel barn and it's after fishing all day and it's really, really cold because it's October or whatever it is, or you run into an old fishing buddy, but there are just all those little kind of colorful vignettes that happen that have really nothing to do with the fishing?

David:
[39:48] Yeah, I mean sometimes the best thing is, you know, you're out there fishing and, you know, another guide, friend, or you're out there, you know, you know, fishing not as a guide but as a support and you see another skip and it turns out to be somebody you know and you're wrapped up together and have lunch together and, you know, normally you're just kind of eating on the run or a quick 20-minute lunch and end up hanging out for an hour, boat to boat, talking about the day, saying how much how beautiful it is and how great it is and you know it's kind of a it's kind of a wow.

Marvin:
[40:22] Yeah absolutely and you know so David you know what is a typical day on the water like with you?

A Day in the Life of a Fishing Guide

David:
[40:28] Well, I mean, we can sort of do day in the life of a guide, right?
You know, I wake up early.
Well, actually, it all starts the night before, really. You know, after a day of fishing, I have to make sure the rods are rigged and everything's clean, the flies aren't beat up from the day before or from that day.
So I don't like to get things ready in the morning. I like to get things ready the night before.
And then I'll wake up. I'll meet my client someplace or I'll pick them up, glide the boat in the water after picking up lunch someplace or making it, and try to make sure the clients bring their rods, that they're rigged before they get on the boat.
Because rigging a rod once you're on the boat means you're missing opportunities.
So you want to have everything rigged at the car, at the trailer.

[41:26] And it's, you know, each day is a little bit different, but you try to get into the flow of the day, you know, you slip the boat in the water, you get in, you talk about expectations.
If somebody's new to the game, you know, what to expect, what they're going to be seeing, what they should be looking for.
And you kind of go from there and then you just try to start feeling out, you know, the person on the bow and see if they're understanding what they're talking, what you're talking red, they're seeing the fish.
And if they're not, and if people are open, there's sometimes a little bit of fly-casting instruction or a little bit of fly-casting help.

[42:17] And, you know, you fish until either the tide is doing something that is not, you know, is not going to help you, maybe you'll stop.
Sometimes you eat lunch at 10 in the morning, sometimes you eat lunch at 2 in the afternoon, depending on the tide. Sometimes you're fishing through an entire tide and you're not eating lunch until the end of the day.
But that's kind of how the day goes.
It's kind of hard to explain. And then at the end of the day, it can be the high fives and the thank yous and your air dropping photos from your phone to the other person's phone and they're showing their appreciation or not.
And get the boat back up on the trailer and go home, prepare and do it all over again the next day.
It's not super exciting until you're the one who's on the bow of the boat.

Marvin:
[43:23] You also told me, right, you only fish your flies, right?

David:
[43:27] You know, for the most part, I do. There's a couple of flies I will buy.
Occasionally, I'll buy some crease flies, but I would say 90% of the flies that are used on my boat, I tie.
I mean, if I look in my fly box right now, probably I can count on one hand the amount of flies that are not mine.
And I've got a big box, probably like three boxes I carry with me each have about 300 flies a piece in them. And most of the flies are exactly the same.
I probably have five or six different patterns, but I vary them in size and color.
And part of my day is in the evening if I feel like I'm running out of particular color or hook size, I'll tie up a few for the next day.
Usually I'll do that after dinner.

Marvin:
[44:34] Got it. And for folks that aren't kind of familiar with your fisheries, you want to kind of let folks know kind of the arc of your guide season?

David:
[44:43] I would say, you know, as soon as the weather breaks, you know, give a little bit of time, but, you know, May through November, made through early November.
It used to be made through the end of October, and it'd be like the end of May.
But I've definitely seen a change in weather patterns and climate, and the seasons become longer, where I'm fishing earlier and earlier in May, and I'm fishing later and later in October or November, I should say.

[45:18] And there are probably more open spots throughout the season where we don't find as big a density of striped bass as we used to. And again, not just a function of climate, but it's also a function of management of the resource, or as I like to say, mismanagement of the resource.
And we have three primary species we fish for here, which is striped bass, bluefish, and false albacore. And occasionally, we'll get a weak fish and some bonito.
And early in the season, it's usually striped bass birth, then blueprints come in shortly after.
And false albacore usually are showing up either the very, very last couple of days of August or sometime in the first week or two of September.
And we'll fix those. Last year we were catching albies, getting albies till like November 5th last year, November 6th.
And then we have our shoulder season, It's a big shoulder season here in the Northeast from November until May, but during that time period, if I'm not teaching skiing, I'm taking groups to Belize, Mexico, or the Bahamas hosting trips for tarpon, permit, and bonefish.

Marvin:
[46:43] Sounds like a horrible existence. Terrible.

David:
[46:47] Terrible.

Marvin:
[46:49] So we were talking when we were preparing for the interview about, you know, how we see in fly fishing.
It's such a powerful solvent and connector among people.
And I was kind of curious on your thoughts about why you think that's the case.

David:
[47:07] I think fly fishing, it's kind of weird. Fly fishing is looked upon as almost like a cult-like existence or sport.
Um, you know, when you tell people you're fly fish, they're like, ah, you're, you're fishing in a river for trout or, or, or you're whipping the rod around and, and, and catching fish and, you know, a lot of people don't fully understand it, but when you explain it to them, they like it.
But all the people who do fly fish, it's, it's, it's a kindred spirit.

The Different Types of Fishing

[47:43] But it's not that unique, fly fishing.
People come to me and say, well, I do regular fishing, and I'll be like, well, what's regular fishing?
Well, I use a spin reel, and I'll be like, I don't think there's any such thing as regular fishing. There's spin fishing, and there's fly tackle, and there's trolling, and bait fishing, and fly fishing.
And I would contend that fly fishing is maybe one of the earlier forms of rod and reel fishing. What could be more regular than that?
There's that connection with fly anglers, especially I think the ones who tie their own flies, which is very, very powerful.
The people who fly fish, I don't think they have a greater appreciation of nature and the environment, but in many ways, I feel like very often they might be more connected.

Marvin:
[48:40] I mean, I think it's interesting that you say that about tying because I always kind of explain to people that even if you don't tie like seriously, like it's just another way when you can't get out on the water that you can kind of touch that thing that makes fly fishing so special to you.

David:
[48:53] Yeah. I mean, you know, if you think of fly fishing as a way of expressing yourself, then fly tying is certainly a really good way to express yourself.
My buddy Lou Yen and I have a wonderful little show called Masters of the Fly.
Everyone go to mastersofthefly.com and see what we do.
But we have fly tires, come on. We have a lot of different guests, but we have fly tires, come on, and they're just so fascinating, and they're so connected.
And when people are talking about the flies they tie, they can't help but talk about the environments fishing the flies and how to do it and the places they've been to experience how their flies work.
It's really, really interesting.

[49:53] And we've had a lot of really good feedback from both the fly tires and the people who've listened to the fly tires about their experiences in what they do.
I know that when I'm sitting down in time flies, I'm thinking about...
I'm thinking about the fish I'm fishing too, but I'm not just thinking about the fish.
I tie my flies to mimic a particular environment.
So if I'm fishing a bottom that's got a lot of grass and a lot of green, my flies tend to be a little bit darker or a slightly different color pattern versus the flies that I use when I'm fishing over a sandy bottom.
Because the bait It takes on the characteristics of the environment that that particular bit of bait lives in.
I know that when I'm fishing stripers, stripers are much lighter in color as well on a sandy bottom versus if I'm fishing stripers over eelgrass where they'll be very dark and mossy in color.
So, all these things are taken into account when you're tying flies and it's that understanding that connection that we all have and we all see it that makes it possible for us to relate to each other so well.

Marvin:
[51:19] Yeah, it's interesting too because I really don't think you can be a really effective tier and designer if you don't fish a lot because I don't think you can really understand the fishing problems you're trying to solve unless you've actually experienced them.

David:
[51:33] Yeah I think you're right. And the flies that I tie are really, they're not, I don't think they're super innovative, but what they are is they take into account color and size.

[51:51] And you know, as you said, you know, when you're connected to the environment and you're thing.

[52:01] Adjusting color and size is sometimes all you need to do. Maybe I can tie deceivers.
And I'll tie deceivers maybe a little bit different than the next guy.
But I might tie them sparser, more dense.
I'm using deceivers as an example. Sparser, more dense.
Maybe use some synthetic materials in deceivers versus natural materials in deceivers. so I can mimic what I'm seeing.
You know, maybe some, you know, deceivers that I tie have, you know, morphed into something that's not a deceiver at all, but it certainly was the genesis of what I was tying, or things like high ties.
You know, you take those and you paint them, and you paint the color and the size, and you do a high tie and then you're like, well, I like this high tie, but what I bet if I throw some, make the high tie a full collar of high tie and then I throw some feathers behind it, it'll give it some, a certain kind of action.
And I'm gonna fish it over this particular bottom, so I'm gonna make it this color.
And things start to evolve and you can see how the fish are reacting to these things. how the fish are reacting to these things as you experiment with your fly tying and your colors and your size.

Marvin:
[53:28] Yeah, that's pretty neat. For folks that aren't familiar, you want to tell us a little bit more about what Masters of the Fly is and kind of its genesis, and then I know the next season is coming up soon, what you have on tap for 2024?

David:
[53:43] Well, I'll give you, a couple of things that we're thinking about on tap. But Master of the Fly came out, my buddy Lou Yen and I were tying flies online during COVID.
And we had a bunch of people, and Lou Yen actually invited me in on it, and then we started doing it together. And we started, we were, both of him and I were tying flies, and we had a whole bunch of us in the Zoom call.
I think the first couple ones, there were like four or five of us, and eventually there were like 15 or 20 of us. And we realized that there was something needed in the fly-fishing community.
So Lou and I started throwing around ideas of doing these Zoomcasts, sort of a visual podcast, if you will.
And then we started figuring out names, and we came up with the concept of Masters of the Fly.
Everyone's a master. And in fact, it's just the opposite.
It's to master something.

[54:55] Really has to do with being part of a community and finding joy from it.
You don't have to be an expert to be a master. You know, it's like being a Zen master, you know, if you can, you know, you can, you can learn a master of your own domain, right?
So we came up, we came up with Masters of the Fly. We came up with Masters of the Fly because we wanted to serve the community, supply fishing community with guest speakers and fly tires.

[55:29] We've had people... We've had the American Paltwater Guides Association, which has kicked off each season, and they're talking about the environmental issues and fisheries management and what they're trying to do to help keep fisheries alive. We've had Chris Wood from Tread Unlimited.
We had Andy Mills, who's probably one of the greatest carp and fishermen of all time.
We've had Johnny King, who's a phenomenal fly tire.
And there's a lot of people, I'm really hoping we get Joe Blados this year, who invented a crease fly and a whole bunch of other things.
Of course, we're going to have the American Saltwater Guides Association kick off our show this year.
And the talk about that is probably going to be about the decreasing striped bass numbers, as well as tagging programs for false albacore, which we hold very near and dear to us, the false albacore.
You know, that kind of masters the fly in a very long, very big nutshell in what we do.

[56:47] But go to the website. We've also done some content. There's a very funny one of me and Lou catching sharks on fly rods two years ago.
There's another one of us catching bluefish. There's another one of me and Lou, with one of our co-hosts, Eric Schatzker, where we're out to dry bass fishing in shallow water.
And of course, I'm the one on the pole, and Lou Yen and Eric are the lucky ones catching the dry fish.
So we do have some content on YouTube as well. But everything can be...
All of our past shows can be accessed through YouTube, and you can get to it through our website, masternood.py. Thanks for asking.

Conservation and Fishery Management Issues

Marvin:
[57:33] Oh, for sure. I'll drop links to all that stuff and all the related social and the show notes.
David, did you want to talk a little bit more for folks that aren't super familiar about the conservation and fishery management issues? I know striper are a really hot topic.
I know there's some management issues. I know there's some data issues, but do you want to talk a little bit more about that? Uh, our listeners will get a little bit better feel for what's going on.

David:
[57:59] I mean, we just had recently some horrible numbers come out on Stripe bash recruitment or spawn.
It was the second worst, um, it was second, worst spawn, I think, since record keeping.
And I can't remember the last really, really bad one. I think it was like 2012, um, that on top of overfitting the 2015 year class.
I'm going to backtrack a little bit. We had a moratorium in the 80s into the early 90s on striped bass. They weren't allowed to be targeted.
And the tripe as a fishery came back, roaring back.
If you leave something alone, it will really heal itself.

[58:50] So all the fisheries management people and all their wisdom pretty much forgot the lessons of the past.
We had a limit of one-fifth at 38 inches, then it went to one at 36 inches, then they went to two at 28.
And when they went to two at 28, things started to change.
Now, most people did not recognize the change right away because there were still, you know, lots and lots of fish out there, but within five years, I was noticing changes and then cut to three years ago, they decided to create a spot limit and do a 17% reduction in the fishery.

[59:30] Um, and I'm probably not getting this completely right, but a 17% reduction in harvest, and they said that that would help bring the stocks back.
But the problem was is that it will help bring stocks back if recruitment stays at a constant, which it wasn't.
And the numbers have been declining since 2015.
So us at Masters of the Fly and the American Saltwater Guides Association, we're trying to put things out there through either letter writing campaigns or people going to hearings, you know, to talk about what's going on so that, you know, the managers at the ASMSC and would understand that, you know, we are concerned about this.

[1:00:27] A robust, straight path to injury is super important because so many people make their living either as guides.
Um is guides making money that manufacturers manufacturers who aren't even here in the northeast manufacturers as far away as you know Washington state um are you know and you know count on a healthy striped bass fishery to sell rods and reels and there's hotels and delis and you know this there's you know primary secondary and tertiary effects of of of of of this fishery that are so very important, not just, you know, not just economically, but also culturally.
So it's really, really important that we all fight for a healthy, robust fishery, which it is not right now.
And we're at a crossroads. And, you know, we're all hoping, you know, through our efforts that something gets done. And it needs to be done in a hurry, unfortunately.

Marvin:
[1:01:32] Yeah, and my understanding too is it's even, you know, it's complicated by kind of poor management decisions in the past, poor data collection, which I know is something that, you know, I interviewed Lou Yen and we talked about, you know, how he's trying to help with that.
But also, you know, my understanding is that one of the challenges is that it's, you know, there's a multi-jurisdictional management issue because, I mean, the Stripers are, you know, from North of you all the way down to kind of where I am.
And so you've got, You've got, you know, not just commercial versus rec, but you've got all these different states and the federal government involved as well.

The Complexity of Fisheries Management

David:
[1:02:05] That's right. That's right. And I don't know why we call it fisheries management.
It should really be called fisheries mismanagement.
But we do. It's so complicated with all the different jurisdictions and, you know, everybody wanting their piece of the pie.
And when we all, when it's all said and done, there's going to be no pie for anybody, because, because there's, there's a.

Desire for Striped Bass vs. Sacrifices and Restrictions

[1:02:38] It's hard to put into words, but everybody wants the same thing, but not everybody wants to make the sacrifice.
It's kind of like the pay me now or pay me later scenario. Everybody wants to make the money now and catch the striped bass in both the biggest or the most or whatever, but then when they're saying, we don't need restrictions.
But then when all these restrictions that have not been put into place finally come into place, or people are told they can't catch striped bass anymore, all the people, this is how I feel.
So all the people who wanted to be catching the striped bass, I feel like they're all going to have their hand out saying, well, why didn't you tell us this was happening?
And now I can't run my business anymore and this and that, because...

The Impact of Not Heeding Warning Signs

[1:03:38] And I kind of say to those people who weren't heeding the warning signs, those people were the cause of the problem.
We could have all just been on the same page understanding, you know, how to manage our fishery properly We all could have had a nice piece of the pie and an equal piece of the pie But now that's not possible any longer and it's it's very unfortunate Yeah, it's an interesting thing about you know Kind of what clears things out when people have to roll up their sleeves and give something up or do a little bit of work right Yeah, there's nothing wrong with making a little sacrifice for a lot of gain further down the road You know and and you Not every day is going to be a wonderful day You know not every day you're going to have you know get a ton of bath not every day is the fishery going to be open and in and But you know that at least you're gonna stay in business.
And you know that you're gonna wake up that first day in May when you can start fixing stripers and you know they're gonna be there. I don't know they're gonna be there next May. I just don't.

[1:04:59] I mean, we had some fish this May and it was very nice, but you know, had to work hard. There were not a lot of stripers on the stand.
There were, you know, people are catching, you know, outside the Hudson and maybe the Chesapeake. They're catching a lot of big fish here and there.
I remember when I first started guiding, and even up until probably seven, eight years ago, we'd be taking multiple-year classes out of any given school of fish or out of any given day that we'd be pulling a flat.
It's not that way anymore. It just isn't. It used to be...

[1:05:42] This is how maybe arrogant we all were, in a way.
I wouldn't let clients cast at a fish that was under like 27, 28 inches when I first started guiding.
That's how many big fish we had in shallow water. I'd be like, hold on, don't catch the best fish.
Wait, there'll be a really big one coming along that you could shot at because if you catch this 26 inch dink right now and a 35 inch fish comes along, you're going to regret it.
And maybe it was a way for me to appreciate the bigger fish or not.
But now, I don't care at what size the striper is that swims along.
I'm like cast at it. Yeah.

Marvin:
[1:06:21] It reminds me a little bit of the smallmouth fisheries around where I grew up in Virginia where you see the same thing where you go out and you spend a day on the water and you're not, you can see the holes in the classes because you're just not catching those fish at that size.
Right. Right. So yeah, it's an interesting thing.
I mean, and you know, the problem there, you know, there's some management issues, but it's also been that, you know, during the spawn in the spring we've had these scouring floods and that just basically washes everything down and you know knock on wood luckily in the last five or six years that's gotten a little bit better so we're starting to see the recruitment come back but you know not that dissimilar from what you're seeing you know fishing for stripers now.

David:
[1:07:03] Yeah. I mean, it's such a thing. I know there's a lot of poaching.
There's a lot of people who subsistence live, and I feel for them, and they're probably going to take any fish they catch.
You can't really blame them for it because they don't have a lot of money or resources or whatever, and they're going to eat whatever they catch.
But there's a lot of people, there's a lot of charter boat captains, live fishing captains who might take this, but the people are there really to catch this. I don't know if they're necessarily there to kill the fish.
So it's just about re-educating the client and saying, you know what, come out, catch a striper, but we're going to put them back.
We're going to put them back all this season. We're going to put them back all next season because the season after that we get to start keeping them again.

Catch and Release: Respecting the Resource

[1:07:57] I'm strictly a catch and release as captain and I have been since the day I started. And I've had people call me up saying, well, I want to bring Stripe S home. You know, I'm hiring you for the day. I want to bring Stripe S home.
And I'm like, that's not who I am. You want to bring Stripe S home?
It'll be in a photograph.
And they're like, well, no, we want it. And I'm like, no. And I'll say, you want that? I'll give you the name of somebody who does it. But that's not what I do.
I'm not here to use the resource, but not abuse it.
And they respect it. They're disappointed because I got recommended to them, but that's not my thing, you know. Yeah.

Marvin:
[1:08:36] And David, before I let you go this evening, is there anything else you'd like to share with our listeners?

David:
[1:08:47] I mean, most importantly, If you are in the striped bass fishing community, make your voices heard.
Say, hey, it's time to do something about the declining numbers of stripers.
And speak up loud, write letters, write your congressmen, senators, get a membership with the American Saltwater Guides Association.
Do whatever it is that you need to do to preserve the fishery.
It's super, super important.
And there's a great app. Lujan developed a wonderful app. And what you can do is you can find out... It's called GotOne.
And you can put all the stripers into your GotOne app. You go fishing and you log it in.
And you can use your data of the fish you're catching, and I think the state of Massachusetts and some other people are using data from private anglers to help track fish and see what their numbers are.
So I would say, download the GOT1 app and use it and find out from GOT1 how your data can be shared for science and research. It's super, super important.

Marvin:
[1:10:09] Yeah, and I'll link back to my interview with Lu Yen and you can learn, you know, folks, you can learn everything about the app. And the cool thing about sharing the data is you're sharing it. The data is anonymized.
So it's basically shared with the management agencies in like, you know, 10 and 15 mile strips. So you're not spot burning.

David:
[1:10:27] That's right. You're not spot burning. Just going to the scientists, they couldn't care less about what your spots are. They only care about the fit, how big they are, what tide they were caught on, what the numbers are. you know, the density.
I'm a guide and I use this app every single day. I do not have any care in the world about spot burning.
It is completely anonymous.

Marvin:
[1:10:51] And rumor has it you're the most valuable beta tester.

GotOne App

David:
[1:10:59] Well, I've been finding some problems here and there with the app and fortunately I have a direct line to the creator so we get it fixed really quick, but it's such a wonderful app. It's kind of incredible.
It's one of the easiest apps to use. It's really quite self-explanatory and if you use it, you'll figure it out right away.

Marvin:
[1:11:22] Yeah. And so David, before I let you hop, you want to let folks know where they can learn more about North Flats guiding and kind of follow your adventures on the water and on the slopes?

David:
[1:11:30] Sure. Um, they can go with, you know, for North Flats guiding, or you can just go to davidslincoln.com or northflats.com.
Uh, and you can find me, uh, there, you can find me on Facebook.
Um, and, uh, you might also be able to find me, I think on the Hardy website is one of their pros.
So that's the easiest way to find me.
My phone number is on my website so you can get me that way and feel free to email me.
I love it when people email me just to ask me questions.
Even if they're not necessarily going to fish with me, I'm happy to engage in a conversation.
It's a lot of fun. I do what I do because I love it.
It's my way of life. my lifestyle, it's who I am.

Marvin:
[1:12:25] Yeah, very, very neat. And I'll drop links to all that stuff in the show notes to make it easy on everybody. Great.

David:
[1:12:32] Well, thank you. Thank you. This has been great fun.

Marvin:
[1:12:36] Yeah, it's been tremendous fun. And we'll tease this for folks.
We've got a multi-part series that'll be coming up shortly that you'll start to see, so you'll get to hear a lot more from David in the future.
You know, David, I really appreciate you taking some time. Hopefully I caught you after dinner, maybe before fly tying for tomorrow, and we got to hang out a little bit.

David:
[1:12:57] Well, I only have four or five flies to tie tonight, Marvin, and all I got to say is hopefully this gets you excited for striper fishing, because I hope to see you on the bow of the boat sometime next spring.

Marvin:
[1:13:10] Yeah, that would be tremendously fun. I'll have to work on my seasickness, though.

David:
[1:13:15] You won't get seasick in a skip. fishing flatwater. You're rocking less in a skip than you are in a canoe.

Marvin:
[1:13:23] Well, sounds good. Well, listen, David, I really appreciate it.

David:
[1:13:26] All right, Marvin, thank you so much.

Marvin:
[1:13:28] Take care.

Intro:
[1:13:30] Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed that as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you.
Again, if you like the podcast, please tell a friend, and please subscribe and leave us a rating and review in the podcast of your choice. Be sure to head over to www.nor-vice.com, to check out all the cool things going on at NorVice. Tight lines, everybody.