Transcript: PODCAST INTERVIEW: Predator Trout After Dark: Frank Landis' Night Fishing Secrets

Marvin Cash: Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of the articulate fly. Before we get to our interview, our thoughts and prayers go out to everyone touched by Hurricane Helene. Many of the people and places we love so much are deeply affected and will be for some time. We're collecting information on how you can help with the cleanup and recovery. If you have helpful information, please share it with us and we will pass it along. In the meantime, you can donate to the North Carolina Disaster Relief Fund at nc.gov/donate. The fund, with the assistance of the United Way of North Carolina, will provide for immediate unmet needs through reimbursements to nonprofits working directly with disaster survivors. Please consider making a donation. Our guest this episode is Pennsylvania Guide Frank Landis. Frank and I take a deep dive into night fishing for predator trout. We cover it all: scouting water, fishing and non fishing gear, flies, and presentation. I think you're really going to enjoy this one. But before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items. If you like the podcast, please tell a friend and please subscribe and leave us a rating review in the podcatcher of your choice. It really helps us out. And a shout out to our sponsor, Trout Routes. It's a fact none of us get to fish as much as we want. Almost overnight, planning a fishing trip went from a gazetteer in word of mouth to the entire Internet. There have never been more resources available for fishing, but it's a challenge trying to wade through the digital noise to find the most current and relevant information. Spend less time surfing the Internet and more time on the water with Trout Routes. With over 350,000 access points mapped across 50,000 trout streams and much more, trout routes has all the data you need to help you make the most of your time on the water. Where I fish in southern Appalachia, figuring out how to get off the water can be as important as finding it in the first place. With Trout Routes, I can mark the best spots to get out of the water so I don't find myself in a valley I can't climb out of as the sun goes down. Up your game and download the app today. Use code artfly20 (all one word) for 20% off your Trout Routes Pro membership at maps.troutroutes.com. Now, on to our interview. Well, Frank, welcome to the articulate fly.

Frank Landis: Hi, Marvin, how's it going?

Marvin Cash: Uh, just trying to stay out of trouble. And you know, we have a tradition on the articulate fly. We like to ask all of our guests to share their earliest fishing memory.

Frank Landis: Sure. Yeah, I was, uh, really young. I have a bunch of young fishing memories. I might have been, I don't know, four or five years old. I can remember my aunt and uncle taking me out to a bluegill pond and just throwing a bobber under some, you know, with worms under a bobber and catching bluegill very, very easily. And, that was, like, obviously exciting. And then to compare that to maybe the opposite experience, my dad took me out bass fishing in a lake with, like, regular gear as, like, a five year old. And I don't know, that's even the first time he's ever took me fishing. But, like, I can remember not catching anything and snagging all the time. You know, or fishing like rubber - you know, bass, you know, just, you know, bass lures and stuff. And for, like, a little kid, it was just you know, maybe a little too hard and had no success. So I had, like, two good experiences where I had, like, a really easy time and then, like, a real tough time and, you know, that's real fishing. So set me up good for, you know, my expectations going forward.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. Good thing you weren't, uh, losing crankbaits or your dad probably wouldn't have ever taken you fishing again, right?

Frank Landis: No, just soft plastics. Yeah, I think it was like, you know, rubber, rubber, soft plastics, that kind of thing. So not too bad.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And so when did you come to the dark side of fly fishing?

Frank Landis: Yeah, so my dad always fly fished. And, you know, while he would be fly fishing, I'd often just have bait or spinners or whatever, you know, kids fish with. And then, yeah, I would get a situation where everything would be nice and easy. He'd hand me the fly rod and, you know, sometimes I'd hook a fish. And oftentimes I'd break them off because you're trying to pick them straight up with five or six X and, you know, a stock trout or whatever, and, you know, snap it off. But I definitely got that first experience at super young. And then I think by middle school I can remember, like, tying a couple, like, Elk Hair Caddis, and catching some fish on them at my local stock stream. So, um, pretty solid early set of memories, fly fishing. But then, you know, I didn't really dive in where I'm fully fly fishing until I was a little bit older, like college age or, so.

Marvin Cash: Got it. And so who are some of the folks that have mentored during your fly fishing journey and what have they taught you?

Frank Landis: Yeah, so, obviously my dad. Um, You know what my dad really instilled with us the basics of fly fishing. You know, Um, yeah, he was a decent angler himself. Um, Kind of got me started and then. But um what really what I think really like, influenced me most of my dad was, like, um, what he showed me was to, when you do a hobby, just diving full in. Um, first it was archery. When I was young, we used to shoot, recurve a lot. As I got older, it turned into white water kayaking. We drive all over the place to find white water, waiting for, you know, rainstorms to hit different parts of the east coast and driving there, you know, when we had the chance. And that eventually evolved into fishing by the time I was in college. So, he really taught me to kind of, uh, you know, really dive into hobbies and indulge rather than dabble. And so that was kind of my start. And so by college, I'm really fishing a lot. Eventually I moved to Carlisle and get a job out this way, teaching. And then, I worked at TCO Fly Shop out here. And then, you know, met a bunch of people. But one that stands out is, Tom Baltz. I think you said you know Tom, correct?

Marvin Cash: Yeah, I met Tom, I think, at the - for the first time at the, probably one of the last Fly Tying Symposiums before COVID hit.

Frank Landis: Gotcha. Has he been on your show? I didn't. I never seen him. Never seen that. I don't remember.

Marvin Cash: No. He's on the list, though.

Frank Landis: Oh, cool. Cool. Well, he'd be a good one. He's a legend in our area. He's been guiding, man, I want to say close to 40, 50 years in this area. So, I mean, you're not going to find a person with a better wealth of experience and you're not going to find someone who knows as much just locally, um, and what better person to talk to than someone who's been doing the exact same thing that I'm trying to do for the last 40, 50 years. He's just a wealth of knowledge. He's become quite a good friend. We've talked a lot and spent a lot of time, me, and my wife, hanging out with him, his wife, quite a bit. And we've become close. So he's just been a huge influence to me on the fishing side of things locally in this area, as well. And then, um, one more, I think is worth. Now we're gonna be talking about night fishing, and then the person who really got me thinking about the night game and really got me excited is uh, good friend Sam Galt I'm up at the TCO State College Store. He's the head guide up there and he's this amazing angler and again, a great guide. I've spent quite a bit of time with him. When I'm guiding up in that neck of the woods, I'll crash at his house. And we've had endless conversations about all things fishing. And one of the things that came up over and over was night fishing. And he really piqued my interest and got me thinking, telling me crazy stories about fish, doing weird things and big fish, you know, how it's different and exciting. And thats really what sparked my interest. And not only just the interest, but his platform, his methods. Thats kind of what I started with and that was kind of where I uh, built my kind of night vision program off of his techniques. So thats kind of my guy there.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. Very, very neat. And so how did you initially get the guide bug?

Frank Landis: Yeah, so I worked at the TCO Boiling Spring Shop for maybe three years when I moved in this area before I started guiding. It was just a natural transition, I think. You know, I'm a teacher, so, you know, it was like, you know, I fish a lot, I'm already a teacher. Those two things go hand in hand when it comes to guiding. So eventually, Jake Villwock, relentless fly fishing, who does all the TCO trips in my area, he pretty much, you know, gave me that shot and I started guiding a couple trips a year and it's kind of been growing from there. So that's kind of how that all started.

Marvin Cash: Very, very cool. Are there some folks kind of on the guide side that have kind of helped you hone your craft?

Frank Landis: Yeah, I mean, um, everybody in the TCO kind of world that I've run into has played, you know, some type of role. You know, guys that you've had on the show. Um, other guys as well. I mean, my good friend Alex Kolivras, he's a full time guide in our area. I mean, uh, he's been a great friend of mine, just a good peer. Brennan, he that on the show, Brennan Ruch, as well. Neil Sunday, I worked with him at the shop quite a bit. And uh, you know, I've gone on a couple of, you know, group trips with Neil and just picking up on little things like, you know, the best places to take your clients to lunch or, or things like that. Like, I've picked up stuff like that from Neil. You know, Eric Naguski, who you've had on the show, I believe, um, you know, just picking up, like, bug information from him. So all the guys that are around that TCO community, I'm obviously missing names too, but there's a lot more. But you know, all those dudes.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, you know, there's such a unique fly fishing culture in Pennsylvania. Right? And so it's kind of interesting to see all those guys kind of get together and share information.

Frank Landis: Oh, yeah, I think it's been a good, like, you know, it's never been. I've never felt like people were shielding spots or information, at least, you know, most of the people I've ever met in, you know, in this area, I mean, so it's a pretty good community. And people we're trying to work with each other and, it goes pretty well.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, neat. And, you know, so when I have guides on, I have kind of two questions that, you know, I like to ask them. And, you know, the first one is, you know, what do you think is the secret to being a good guide?

Frank Landis: Yeah. So, I mean, there's the starting out point that, like, you'll hear it over and over, hey, you got to know your, your fishing stuff, whatever fishing program you're trying to run. You got to be good at it, you got to know it. There's that. And you also have to be a people person. Right? If you're not good with people, you're not going to make for a very good guide that you're going to deal with all sorts, especially when you're working on a fly shop or you might get anybody, you know. You have to be pretty good with different types of people. Beyond that, though, what I've noticed, there's tons of, like, situations where certain people and certain guides really mesh well. And it could be for any reason, like, it could be for a fishing reason, a non-fishing reason. And I've seen, like, so many combinations of that. So, like, you know, when you have a good, you know, a marriage, so to say, of like, intentions, I see that work out really well. And so, you know, guides and clients out there should be, I think they should be looking for finding those connections because that's where the magic happens. And you have really good experience on the water when you meet those people and it's really working and everyone's working together, then it's not like you're, like you don't want a really good guide trip. You don't feel like you have to do everything. You feel like you're just a part of the process and that's when it's as smooth as it can be.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it's neat because, I mean, I've kind of been fortunate enough over the years to develop those personal relationships with people that I fished with. And, you know, you kind of do kind of become like family.

Frank Landis: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I have a client that uh, I've guided so many times and Alex Kolivras guides them as well. We kind of both guide them a lot. And we text him, if I catch a cool fish, I text it to him. And, you know, we're chatting and keep each other updated on each other's lives and you know, it's just been a good, good way to make uh, you know, new relationships with people, new contacts and. Yeah, it's, it's a good thing.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. Very, very neat. And then the, the second question I always like to ask guides is I ask them to share what they think the biggest misconception is that folks have about the life of a fishing guide.

Frank Landis: Yeah. So I definitely don't live that full time program. You know, I'm a teacher full time, so I'm definitely doing it on the side. And, you know, I think that's maybe, maybe what I'd say is that there's a lot of guides out there that are from all walks of life, on different schedules. And you know, as long as they're passionate about it, as long as they're getting to it and they're there, um, you know, working for you to give you the best day. I mean, you can find great guides that are in all different situations. You know, there's some. I know some great guides that are doing it every single day. Like a Sam Galt that I've already mentioned, or Neil and Alex, they're full time for us down here. But then there's guides, you know, that, you know, they might only do like 15 trips a year, ten trips a year. But those 10/15 trips are quality with like, you know, clients that they, you know, like we've said, had a good relationship with. And you know, that's meaningful too. And it's just a different way of doing things. So there's all sorts of different scenarios you can find yourself in with knowing the guiding side of things, I think are just really positive in general.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, I think it's neat to watch people that have kind of been in the game for a while because, you know, generally they end up in a place where they're kind of fishing with those people that have become friends that like to be, you know, fish the way they like to guide people fishing or the way they like to fish. And it's really kind of cool to kind of watch, you know, guides as they kind of, you know, for lack of a better word, kind of grow up in guiding to kind of, you know, build that universe of people around them.

Frank Landis: Yeah, definitely. And it's, you know, it's, it's every, it's everything from, you know, your clients, the people that you fish with for fun. Your other guides that you guide with. And there's other guys that I've learned a lot from. I've never even spent a moment on the water with. You know, I've never even fished with these guides, and we've talked and we've shared information and, you know, the whole community you're talking about. That's, that's great. It's good stuff.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And so, you know, it's interesting. Right? So you got on my radar screen because you're working on kind of developing this niche and guiding for trout at night. And so I was kind of curious, you know, Frank, what drew you to the night game?

Frank Landis: Yeah. So, I've always dabbled in night fishing to some degree. Typically, it'd be like, you know, you're fishing an evening hatch, like you're fishing drake spinners or hex spinners or something like that. And, you know, the hatch winds down, fish stop rising. Oh, I heard about mousing, I'll throw this mouse on and just see what happens and maybe catch a fish, maybe have a blow up. And I dabbled in, like, night fishing like that for a while, just a handful of times a year just for the novelty of it. And then, like I said, starting, starting to hang out with Sam Galt, hearing his excitement, his enthusiasm, that really just, like, got me going. Right? And so kind of how I describe it to people is like, if you are an adventurous angler or if you are the kind of person who's like, maybe you've done, you've done a lot of that. You've done it all. You know, you've fished for trout, you have, you've done some salt water. You've had kind of, like, went through the, you know, the paces of someone going through the fly fishing world, uh, the night fishing game will probably be interesting to those people too. It's different. You know, you're out there, there's nobody around you. You have solitude, I'm thinking places that are shoulder to shoulder, you know, during a hatch or during a busy time. You might go out at night and there's literally no one, you know, and it's just an amazing situation. Just have to literally have the whole river to yourself. Literally, not just figuratively. Difficult. You're blind out there. You can't see. You know, the light spoofs fish, so you're not turning that light on. It's challenging. It makes you feel like you're, like you're a beginner again. You have to relearn things that like maybe you took for granted, like what the best, even just like what the best water type to fish is. I mean, that completely now has changed at night. So just like, you know, the whole new set of experiences to kind of work through mentally and with your fishing. And then also what everybody thinks of, you know, get the big trout. You know, that might be a little overplayed, in terms of like, how easy that is to run into those big trout at night, but they're there and they. That, that's, that's one of the times they feed and it's one of the times they make themselves available to us. So, you know, the big trout are there. And that's the time of year like, uh, you know, when the fishing is hard, you know, during the day and the night fishing gets kind of easy and good. You know, those water temperatures are creeping up and, you know, maybe people are backing off a little bit because of low and clear fish are spooky, maybe Marshall temps, middle of the day. But at night, man, that's, that's kind of like, you know, another chance you can get after it. And it's fun. So, you know, that's all for all those reasons, man. It's an exciting game.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it's interesting too, you know, for me, like, even on the non fishing side, because, you know, I generally float when I fish at night. But, but, you know, like just the experience of like a little bit of moonlight, starlight, you know, the wildlife, you know, hearing like, you know, beaver slap their tail, or even better, you know, hearing that toilet flush sound right when the flag is away. It's just a totally different experience. Right?

Frank Landis: Yeah. You tap into the senses that, like, you don't need to tap into during the day. Like, sound even, like. Like thinking about, like, not know your fly lands, I mean, you're listening for the splat of your mouse hitting the surface, and that's how you know if you got close to the bank or not. So you're tapping into parts of your sensory system that you don't really have to during the day. You mentioned the wildlife. I've had so many, like, weird wildlife experiences at night. You know I think Sam told me one time, he's like, you know, half of the biological world is happening out there at night, but we're kind of oblivious to most of that as humans. You know, we don't even pay attention to it, and it's all out there. It's available to us, and we can experience it, and you can be out there. You just can't see. Right?

Marvin Cash: Yeah. I tell you, one of the neatest things, and it's not really wildlife. It's fishing. But, you know, fishing at night on the Watauga and floating out into the lake and, moving, like, you know, 50 and 60 striper schools, you know, fish kind of. Yeah, kind of. Kind of wild. Right. Because there's stripers in that system, too. And so you're coming out and, you know, you're done, you know, trying to get mister big brown trout, and, you know, you turn your light on, and you've got, like, pods of, like, you know, 40 to 60 striped bass.

Frank Landis: That's awesome. Yeah, we definitely don't have that here. And I think, like, you know, you mentioned, like, the floating dynamic. Unfortunately, again, my local area is we don't have rivers that can, like, sustain a reasonable float at night, um, when the night fishing conditions are good. If I drove 3 hours and in a direction, I might have some of that, um, but, you know, my bread and butter stuff is not really, you know, available on a boat. You know, we can float rivers when they're kind of too high to wade in our area, like, our main state rivers. So I don't get the chance to fish them at night as much. But, like, I guess, like, just talk about the differences there. Like, what do you. What is the process? Like, how much water are you guys covering? How far you float in at night? Um, how much. How long are you spending in a run or a pool? Are you moving a lot or, you know, what's. What's your basic game plan so I can kind of bounce off that?

Marvin Cash: Yeah. I mean, so, you know, I would say the float is probably not quite as long as, like, a traditional day float. Right? But, but, I mean, you know, not unusual to, like, put on, you know, it kind of depends on how you're doing it, but, you know, you could, like, you know, put on, like, in like 2 or 03:00 in the afternoon, kind of, quote, normal fish. Right? And then kind of eat dinner at dusk, and then fish until like four or five in the morning.

Frank Landis: And so that sound that lasts a long day.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, yeah. You do it back to back, it'll really kind of wear you out. But, I mean, I would say since you're fishing, you know, you're not re generally going back and refishing areas. You're kind of just kind of consistently kind of working down the river. And the, you know, I would say -

Frank Landis: You're not anchoring up really too much or anything.

Marvin Cash: No, and I would say too, like, um, you know, not really anchoring up and, you know, currents relatively slow, and so, you know, you're just kind of consistently, you know, kind of working your way down the river, maybe sneaking peaks at the bank with your headlamp every now and again just to make sure that you kind of have an idea about what's coming up. Yeah, and then I don't row the boat, for the record. So, um.

Frank Landis: Yeah. Yeah, I know that river.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. I deeply trust, uh, the. The folks that I fish with on the Watauga and the South Holston, because, I mean, you know, when you're starting to float through, like, you know, class two rapids in the dark, it makes it kind of interesting.

Frank Landis: Right, right, you've gotta know your line.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And so, you know, I would say that, and then I would say probably compared to how you do it, there's probably a little bit more light pollution, you know, because sections of the South Holston and the Watauga are relatively close to the road. Obviously, there are people that like to have houses on the river. There's also, you know, not an insignificant amount of what I would kind of consider light industrial. Right? So you might have a warehouse that's got, like, you know, spotlights and stuff.

But, you know, the flip side of that is, you know, from a wildlife perspective, you get to see, like, you know, heron and osprey at night, basically looking for shadows to try to find a fish that makes a mistake.

Frank Landis: Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's pretty cool. I mean I love to do that. That sounds, that sounds awesome. I mean just, just from hearing your description though, the big differences that pop out as you describe what that's like would be um, I can fish at night for a lot less, like I don't have to commit to such a big night, you know. You know if I have work the next day I can go out and if it, especially this time of year, we're now in late September, days are getting shorter. I can get out at like maybe 8:00, you know 8:30 and it's already dark. And if that moon doesn't come up till 11:00 you know I might, I might fish you know 8:30 to 11:00 get home, I'm in bed by before midnight and I can get six, seven hours of sleep which you know maybe I should get my full eight, but you know it's you know at least I guess a respectable amount of sleep and you know I'm at work the next day so there's that less commitment. And like you, you alluded to like I will like refish water that's really good on foot. And really work it thoroughly. There's, and I do with a lot of confidence like on that 3rd and 2nd pass I have just as much faith that that big fish is going to eat on that second and third pass because sometimes it takes those fish a second to kind of settle in the spots especially right after dark. And then also just like the, the nature of it being harder for them to find the food, you know you might just simply miss them and you might just kind of pass by them and you know you got to give those fish a chance to eat your fly. So I have no qualms with you know hitting the same spot two and three times over and kind of being more thorough and then obviously got the waiting factors you're stumbling out there at night, you kind of have to know the river, picks sections of the river that you are comfortable waiting based on your skill level, what you're good at, what you know. You know you really night fish anywhere that you could wade but you know it might be smart to kind of pick and choose your spots wisely there.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. Urgent care is probably not something you want to add to the dance card I would imagine.

Frank Landis: Yeah. And I've, you know I've had my trips to the hospital for different things of late but hopefully, you know, night fishing doesn't, doesn't get me there either, you know.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And so kind of in your neck of the woods, you know, where do you like to fish at night?

Frank Landis: Yeah, so, I mean, like, uh, you know, I live in the Cumberland valley. So, that would be like the yellow breeches and, you know, all of our famous spring creeks that are in this area. And that's kind of my local haunts that, you know, I guide that water in the day most. And that's where I'm fishing, you know, locally. But also like your Central PA, like Stream Reports that you do with George - all those rivers that you mentioned that they all fish very well at night and have something to offer to us at night. So, you know, you have that. And then also, man, like anywhere I've traveled to, like, vacation wise, like the Rocky Mountain West. A ton of night fishing I've done in Colorado with a good bit of success. A little bit in Wyoming, here and there. Um. Um, I've avoided night fishing where I think I could run into a grizzly bear because it's kind of freaks me out, even though it's probably not likely still, man, I don't, I don't trust that. So I'm not night fish some of those places, at least not, not waiting. I wouldn't do a waiting. But, you got some wildlife in some parts of the country that might make me a little hesitant. But overall, man, like, you know, it's a pretty safe thing to do. And I've not done almost anywhere I've fished except for, you know, some of those densely grizzly populated places. Like, you know, that freaks me out. So I've avoided that.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it's kind of funny because I would say, you know, I fished out west a fair amount, and I'm more scared of moose and bison than I am a grizzly bears.

Frank Landis: Sure. And I think a moose at night would be like, you know, you're, you're, you know, you sneak off the willows along a bank, you know, creeking in Colorado and that there could definitely be moose there. I think about cats, you know, they're way more active at night, you know, your mountain lions and everything. So that's been in the back of my mind, you know, out in Colorado. And, you know, typically I've tried to do it with other people or, you know, keep a light. Like, if I've been freaked out, whether it was for a good reason or not, I've like, taken my headlamp and turned it on and shine it backwards off the back of my head. So, like, think that like, if a cat's gonna sneak up on me or some animals out there that might spoon a little bit. So I don't know if that works or not or if that's even, you know, worth doing, but that's something you do to kind of calm the nerves when you're in a place where you think like, oh, man, what if there's something there? You know, I've done stuff like that, so it's fine. It's interesting, it's funny, if nothing else.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it's a good story. And so, you know, in terms of, you know, when you're waiting, kind, uh, of where you like to fish, you know, you know, how do you find good night water? And, you know, what are kind of your optimal conditions for night fishing?

Frank Landis: Sure. Yep. So in terms of like, the water types, well, start with that. I would say, like, the, the water that's adjacent to the good daytime water is kind of what you're looking for that's maybe a little slower, maybe a little shallower, softer. A place where a fish could like, leave its daytime holding lines slide into like a prime feeding spot where it could, you know, take advantage of a, you know, crayfish or a mouse or, you know, whatever it might eat. You know, that's what you're looking for. So that can be, you know, the tail outs of poles, the shallows below or above a really nice run. Something in your structure or wouldn't you could reasonably imagine, okay, big fish lives under this wall, maybe drops back 10ft into these shallows and eats a crayfish every couple nights, you know, those kind of places. So that's the type of water, just generally slower, calmer stuff than maybe what you fish during the day. And then you mentioned like, conditions, you know, typically the warmer months are your best bet. I mean, especially in places that have some thermal scenario going on where fish feed more at night for thermal reasons. That's definitely, you know, a tried and true way to fish at night. But, you know, I like a clear night, as little ambient light as possible, as little moonlight as possible. Um, sometimes clouds can help or hurt that problem. Like, you know, clouds might block out the moon, but clouds can also reflect light from a town. So you kind of have to, you know, think about what you're doing and kind of calculate the moon and light situations. And I found that generally the fish are feeding better on a darker night and especially the bigger fish. Not to say you can't go out on the full moon and find the shadows and hit those spots and get a fish to eat. But generally I'm making those darker nights. Clear water. I definitely don't like dirty water. And I'm definitely trying to avoid the fog on the surface, when you get like a, you know, maybe the water's kind of warmer, cold and then the temperature there. Temperature is like dramatically different. You get that surface fog at night. That can cause some problems. I don't know why, but the fish don't like that. So that's something I avoid. But yeah, you're looking for those clear nights. I like a starry night, no moon, late summer, early fall, pre-spawn. Those are like my favorite conditions.

Marvin Cash: Got it. And I know, you know, when we were talking before we did the interview, you were telling me that there's actually a difference between, between night fishing a spring creek versus a freestone.

Frank Landis: Yeah, definitely. The big thing is the consistency in water temperature. Like I'll need one river for each to just to give a example for those who might know spots that are not, you know, no secrets, you say. We have, in my area, I have a Latour Spring run that runs right through Carlisle, where I live. And that's, you know, 50-some degrees every single day of the year. It's not changing. It is what it is. The fish are spooky during the day and from my experience, they're also spooky during the night. You know, they're not necessarily. They haven't let their guard down. I think they feel vibrations - the way the banks are, I think they feel vibrations. I've walked up to the bank at night in pitch black conditions and I've seen like big fish push lakes off the bank. They felt me coming up to the bank. So they're still spooky, you know. And they're also less predictable in those spring creeks because they don't have to feed at night for a thermal reason. A good example where they have to feed a knife for a thermal reason would be Penn's Creek that I know you guys talk about in your Stream Report out there. Penn's, you know, it has, definitely some sketchy temperatures during midsummer. So you know, the best time, the most predictable time to fish a river like that to freestone and Penn's has some limestone influence, some spring influence way up top. But as it goes, you know, farther down, it's more like a freestone. What you'll find is like if you have a day where maybe the daytime temps are creeping up in the low seventies, high sixties and you want to lay off the trout, you know, for, for thermal reasons, at that same night, you know, let the sun go down for a few hours and then we drop down to 62/60. When those fish are ready to feed, they have to feed. So because they have to take advantage of that like window for their metabolism, it's like one that's healthier for them to be active. They're going to be interested in eating stuff at night no matter what it is - surface, subsurface, anything. They're on it. So, you know that's an interesting little dynamic. And I think a freestone or something that has a temperature, a predictable temperature swing, you can get that really predictable night play.

But not to say though that on the spring creek or a tailwater where you have that consistent temp, you can, you can get into some, some good night fishing there too. But it just might not be as like you know, not clockwork in the same way, cause the fish don't have to feed them.

Marvin Cash: Got it. And you know, kind of moving on to gear, you know, what's your kind of preferred, you know, rod, reel and terminal tackle setup for night fishing?

Frank Landis: Yeah. So in my area, I'm rolling with a nine foot six. The Scott Centric it's one of my favorite odds I ever casted, ever. So that's what I use at night. Any fast action nine foot six weight. I also have a Loomis IMX Pro that I use because I unfortunately broke my Centric. So picked up that rod as a little back up and that's a great rod too. Any stiff nine to six weight is kind of perfect for our area. You know, out of the boat or if you, if you are really fishing big five, you could totally go up to a seven or eight weight. It's not going to hurt you. You know that's, that's an option. But for what I do, a six weight, you know, you're real kind of pick your reel. Doesn't matter. Fly line is pretty important. I like the scientific anglers infinity glow. The infinity taper is kind of ideal. It's a good, it's good, it's a good line for mending. It's a long taper. It's not like an aggressive like an MPX or something like that, it's real front heavy. That's nice for mending and mending was an important part of my presentation, so that's why I prefer that line. I think it's real gold. Makes a nightline to glow line, too, and the SA is a little bit better for casting big flies and mending. So I like that better. Have you fished, you guys fish claw lines, right?

Marvin Cash: Yeah, I've done that. I was just kind of curious on the taper, is the taper kind of similar to, like, the Titan Long?

Frank Landis: Yeah, but not as overly. It's similar to the in concept, but it's not as over overlined. Right? So the, the Infinity is a half size heavy, and I think the titan law might be up to two, two line waist heavy. So, similar in concept, but, you know, I like the just, uh, kind of straightforward and, you know, close to line weight, but a little half size heavy. And then the mending of that is kind of why I like it so much. You know, for the casting and, well, out of what I do, the MPX might be better, or some of those more like, shooting head style lines might be a little better for casting these flies. But when it comes to the presentation, which if you know how to cast, you're going to get your fly out there, then the mending and the control the line control. I think that's way more important. So that's why I kind of go down to that Infinity kind of why I prefer that.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. I mean, I think the glow in the dark line, it really is a game changer, right? I mean, you know, um, you know, like one of the cool things, right, if you, even if you don't charge the entire line. And so for folks that aren't familiar, basically what you do is you take your UV light from your tying bench and use that to charge your line, right? You just ball it up in your hand and zap it. But one of the cool things you can do is you can actually, charge sections of the line, right? So you can have like a two inch section charged and then move up a foot, you know? And so the great thing, right, is you can have really sensitive strike detection if you need it because you just kind of watch the orientation of those, like, glowing parts to see if they change. Just like fishing, like, you know, two little, stick on indicators, right?

Frank Landis: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can use, you can do a lot of cool stuff with those glow lines. And, you know, I'm always torn on, like, whether I want to charge it up or not. I mean, generally I don't because I kind of just like simply for the fun of it, enjoy not having the added advantage of that glow line line. Right? I kind of, kind of get a kick out of that. Right? Just like completely being blind is fun to me. So I choose that even though it's a disadvantage. But if I'm guiding or taking somebody out, that's new. So many times I've seen people like maybe struggling to cast or like being completely clueless on what's going on. And I charge that line up for them and they're like oh. And changes them as an angler. It's makes them like very competent all of a sudden. And I've seen that happen a couple of times. That's a cool thing. If I'm fishing unfamiliar water, I'll certainly charge it up, if I don't know what my swing is doing, if I'm not kind of unsure of what's going on out there where I'm landing or whatever, you know, it definitely solves that problem. So I certainly have it on all the time when I night fish. It's even like just white, and to begin with. So it's a layer that's not going to olive or anything like that, like a normal fly line off, it is. So like just the fabulous white in certain conditions I see it without even charging it sometimes. I see it enough anyway. And, you know, it's a great line that's that's I wouldn't I wouldn't be fishing with anything other than that line even if I didn't charge it. So, so it's the way to go.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And so what do you put on the business end of the fly line? What's your leader and tippet setup?

Frank Landis: Yeah, I kind of get a store bought you know, tapered, real big nasty to um. I go to a it's like basically it's a six foot really aggressive leader going down to 16 pound. And I put a little micro swivel, prevent some twist. Like certain flies that we might be fishing. Like a Harvey pusher will certainly twist lighter. You know, tippets and everything. So, not that I'm fishing light ticket. But, um, you know, anytime you're fishing big air resistant flies, you could have impart some twists. So I'll put that micro-swivel and then a short piece of 12 or 16-pound fluorocarbon, for the abrasion resistance, flouro. I like that pink Umpqua stuff that they just came out with a year or two ago. That's um, been, that's been good for me. That's kind of what I use. And I think it's like a saltwater fluoro. That's how they market it. But I use it at night. I'll fish 12-pound. If I'm trying to go subsurface, it sinks a little bit better. If I'm on the surface though, where sinking is not a factor, I'm going, I'm gonna rope it up to 16-pound. So pretty heavy stuff.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And it's always great. And that's kind of one of the things you kind of, at least for me, when I started making that transition and fishing more at night is, you know, you, you know, you're not fishing six or seven x. I mean, you know, when you hook a fish you can, you know, strip him in because you're not going to break him off.

Frank Landis: No. Uh, you can, if that hook is buried, you can, you can play that fish with confidence. You get them in fast. Less chances for things to go wrong. You know, sometimes at night I found like, sometimes the fish really freak out and sometimes they're just like, they're just kind of bulldogging around like they do during the day. It kind of depends, uh, no matter what they're doing, you can really put the wood to them with that. You know, if you have a 16 pound on there and it's just like a brown trout in Pennsylvania, even if it's a huge one, you're not going to break the fish off unless you've messed up your knots. So, you know, or you have like some nick in your leader from some hitting, something you know, you didn't even know about, that's the only way you're breaking the fish also. Yeah, definitely that heavy stuff is a huge advantage.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And so what are some of the other gear that you need to have if you're going to go out and fish at night?

Frank Landis: Yeah, so definitely lights. The headlamp is crucial. You need it to tie knots. You need it to get around a little bit. I always suggest a headlamp that has a red, red light option that is turning on first if possible. So like you have the option to turn it on first or it cycles through it first either way. The reason for that is obviously the white light can spook a trout. So if I want to, you know, tie a knot or something that I don't really want to, you know, blow my spot up, uh, I'll turn that red light on. Catching a small fish that I want to take a picture of, but it's not so worthy of a white light. He's the red light for that. And not going white at first, as big there. And then obviously, you know, a nice sunny, you know, the white light for getting around or taking that picture of the big one that you got. So, you know, the headlamp is super important. From there. Um, definitely. On the other hand, of the likes, the handheld light is pretty important for my system. I gain a lot of information after I'm done fishing a piece of water. I'll shine that light in a really bright light, like a two thousand lumen, like, kind of a light. And I'll hit the water from the position where you're up a little bit. Like, from a boat, I could see, like, not being able to even see the fish from afar because you don't have the right angle. But if you're up on the bank going straight down, shine that, blast that big light on them, and you'll see if those fish are where they should be on a good night. If they're in the shallows and they're hanging in a couple inches of water. Yeah, like they were feeding. They're not in there for no reason. So that light gives us a ton of information. So, you know, on the light end of things, I think it's important to have both. I fish with a lot of people that don't have a handheld light. And I think it. I think it just prevents you from gaining some information. Certainly, I don't fish a spot anchor. I've shined a light on it because I have no confidence that those fish are not spooked. But, you know, once you're done, you know, and before you move spots, you can get a lot of information from that handheld.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And also, too, just to let folks know that, you know, the reason that the red light is so important is it doesn't mess up your night vision.

Frank Landis: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Forgot to mention that. Absolutely. Yep.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. Because, I mean, kind of one of the great things and bad things for fishing at night is all these new headlamps are super bright. And so, you know, that, like, I mean, just compared to, like, you know, I don't know. I've probably got, like, a ten year old black diamond, and I've got one I bought last year when I got a little bit more serious about fishing at night. And, I mean, the difference in the lumen output is insane, right?

Frank Landis: Yeah. Yeah. Do you have a dimmable one.

Marvin Cash: I do, and it's pretty cool. And yeah, it's um, it's awesome. And you know, it's great too because you can even dim the red light, right.

Frank Landis: Yup, yup.

Marvin Cash: So super helpful. You know, other than the light stuff, what else do you think folks should bring with them when they get out and fish in the dark?

Frank Landis: Yeah. Other than like through your typical everyday fishing stuff that you bring anywhere, probably the waiting stab for a lot of people, um, especially the less familiar you are with a piece of water or the security when you can see, you know, having a third leg there with that waiting stab is super helpful at their point of contact, is a good thing. If you're fishing with friends and especially if you are not so confident your friends casting or maybe you are, but maybe you're going to sneak up on them or whatever, a lot of people might fish with safety glasses. I don't like it because I have pretty good vision. I think I see more night than some people say they do. So, I don't like anything in the way, but if you have a real nice, clear new pair of safety glasses, you can see pretty well and you do not want to get hooked in the eye with like a size one or a size two barbed, giant hook flying through the air because your friend didn't know that you were sneaking up behind them to see how they were doing. You know, that's something that some people fish with. And I will situationally I will throw the safety glasses on. Then, you know, little things like, you know, you are around some wildlife. Maybe the bear spray with things like that. I mean, don't really need it in Pennsylvania unless you know, you run into a, you know, maybe a person would be more likely the most dangerous thing you run into around here. But um, you know, depending where you are, the dare spray for the wildlife might be smart when your trips around at night. You'll get surprised by some animal no matter where you are and you don't want it to be a dangerous one. So it might be smart depending where you're at.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And I'd say on the safety glasses front. Cause I mean, you know, I don't like it, but I wear them. Um, you know, I found, I guess like at Home Depot or Lowe's, they're those clear ones that, you know, fit really closely. So they're not really big and bulky and they seem to work relatively well. And you're right, like, you know, don't scratch the snot out of them or they're not going to work very well. But, you know, when they're pretty new, not so bad.

Frank Landis: Yeah. When they're new. When they're new, they're good. And, you know, if I was in a boat, like you said, you're most your experiences in a boat, um, that's probably where you want to have them on. I probably wouldn't fish on a boat without them, you know, so, when you're waiting and, you know, you're 100 yards away from your buddy or whatever, like, you can kind of, like, put them on if you're kind of getting into the danger zone and take them off when you're not. You know, if you're confident with your own casting and, you know, big thing, the big time where you could maybe hook yourself. And this is the reason I don't go even heavier with my tip, is, like, if you get snagged on the other side of the river and say, it's like a river you can't cross. Like, I was fishing the upper Delaware one time, staging on the far bank. 0% chance I could cross where I was at, waiting, you know what I mean? And I'm like, man, what do I do if this fly? Pretty soft and, well, it doesn't. If it doesn't, if I get it off the snag and it just zings back at me really fast, like, that's sort of dangerous with that big hook coming at me. So, you know, having a tip of size that you can break when you have to is a nice little thing, because sometimes it's just better if it breaks versus, like, it flying back at your face at night. So something to think about.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it's actually, while you're saying that, I was just thinking about, I think within the last two weeks, I think Chris Willen and had to extract a hook out of the back of his head.

Frank Landis: Yes.

Marvin Cash: And I don't think he was fishing in the dark, but it looked pretty gruesome. I think he went to the emergency room, and from what I saw on Instagram, he actually had to get the hook out himself.

Frank Landis: Yikes. Yeah. Yeah. No fun. You don't want to do that anytime, and especially at night, because it's no easier. Right?

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And so, you know, talking about flies, tell me a little bit about, kind of what you like to fish and kind of how you. How you select flies as you fish throughout the evening.

Frank Landis: Yeah. So you know, you can fish nymphs and dry flies at night with a lot of success. It's not really what I'm out there trying to do. I'm looking for a predatory fish, to eat something interesting, right. Something big and fun. Now, that doesn't have to be a big fish. There's a lot of predatory twelve inch trout that are willing to eat your mouse or your streamer, right? So it's not necessarily only big fish. But I really like those predatory fish. So with, um, five, I'm breaking them down into a few categories. You got your surface patterns, right? And that's like your mouse dial hair, uh, bug style, foam style patterns that are riding completely on the surface. Good example might be like your master splinter mouse. That's like, you know, pretty, pretty tried and true. Simple mouse pattern, morse mouth, morse mouse. Something like that. Surface pattern. Right? From there, you got like your subsurface stuff. Unweighted streamers are one of the primary aspects of my night fishing game. I don't like weighted stuff. I do think the fish are more surface oriented, so prefer an unweighted streamer. Unless the going really gets tough, I might ask some splash on or out of weighted fly. But unweighted streamers that are fished within a foot of the surface really is what it boils down to. Your big wets and your woolly buggers and things like that, Harvey pusher, that are kind of like, I call them wet fly, you know, wet flies in that kind of category mostly swell a little bit smaller once again. And kind of when they go and gets tough, that might be a good thing to try. And then, uh, the hybrid surface flies, which, what that means is a surface fly that still pushes awake, but it has some part of it that's hanging below the surface that might be articulation or just the material that's riding a little bit lower. And that gives fish something to see that's not like one the surface film, but yet at the same time, the surface is pushing awake. And whatever, you know, you're flying on the surface makes that v and, uh, I think that gets their attention. They see something hanging below. And I bet it's a super productive style of five. Um, and that's what probably, if a mouse or a frog is actually on the surface, probably looks a little bit more like that than the actual mouse patterns we fished. I'm convinced that when you think you're mousing, the fish might not actually be eating your fly. For a mouse, it could be anything. They're eating it for like, not even a thing. And like they're eating as an opportunity, right? So when they see that wick going across the surface, they don't know if that's a mouse or a bait fish or whatever, could push awake. Right. They're just eating it. So, I definitely think something below the surface, even just a few, just an inch or two, big difference. You'll get a little bit more action, a little bit more success with hooking up with fish too.

Marvin Cash: Uh, got it. And so a couple kind of streamer questions. What's your favorite kind of flavor of subsurface streamer?

Frank Landis: Yeah, so I do like an articulated fly, something that moves a little bit. I have a fly that I kind of came up with. Um, a guy who's really a, uh, big part of the PA night fishing game, his name is Bill Ferguson, he gave me a fly. It was kind of one of his, like, you know, experiments. And I looked at him and that's pretty cool. I'm gonna do something similar. And I kind of based a fly off of that I call the cat. And, it's an unweighted streamer. It has three sections. It has like a B10S, #2 in the front. Deer hair spun to your hair head. No letter anything. There's just into your hair, not packed so tight that it floats. You know, I want it to sink. So it's kind of - sometimes I've kind of made them too dense and they float a little bit more than I like. So I don't overdo the density of that deer hair. Just enough to kind of give it profile and push some water, some maribou behind it. And then I have a shank, 20 mil shank to a Gammarrus, like Ahrex Gammarrus #10 hook on the back. And I'll trim some like chocolate game changer chenille in those back sections, quite flat and thin. And that makes the fly very like dense up front and very whimsy in the back. It makes it swim pretty well. It pushes a lot of water. But it also, because it's so light in the back, makes it very easy to cast. And that's like a huge part of like my night fishing patterns is like, I want to cast someone six weight. I don't want to feel like I need a seven or eight weight to throw a nice loop and get it under a tree. So I like the castability of something that's like, easy to cast and still moves and still gives some good action. I don't think the specifics of a pattern at night really matter. So, like something like how easy it is to cast, like, really drives, like how I choose to tie my flies.

Marvin Cash: Got it. Any color preference fishing at night?

Frank Landis: Yeah. So the, the Pennsylvania way is to fish black flies, because you have the contrast. Right. The idea that you're kind of blacking out and silhouetting the best with a black color. Um, um. I don't think shouts see color that well at night. And obviously they're eating things in real life that are not black. So certainly you don't have to fish a black fly to have success. Seen plenty of people catch fish with olive. But with the black fly, certainly is a confidence thing. Like, I think they, like, in more situations, they see it better. So that's why I go black. And, you know, I've experimented with going all white, ah. In full moons and stuff like that, just because there is some light saturated in. And the one time I was fishing with my buddy Alex on a very small stream, and the moon was rising, like, pretty early in the night. So we had like an hour of no moon. But then it was like a really bright moon came over the trees. And I was like, dude, just put a white streamer on. And he's like, well, I think you can ask me. He's like, should I try a white one? I'm like, go for it. Like, try anything because it was slowing down. And he put that white thing on and boom, immediately started, like, getting hits right away in that moonlight. So, you know, that's something I'm going to experiment with more. I haven't put my time into that side of things, but it's something interesting to think about. Like the darker situations, kind of like dirty water going black. And in the breakfast situation, maybe going the opposite, going totally white. Something I do very, uh, little, like almost never. But like, when they go and get stuff, if I am out there in a full moon, something that's in my back pocket to try.

Marvin Cash: Got it. And how about flash and rattles?

Frank Landis: Yeah. So I do tie a little bit of flash into most of my flies. Like, just like a black, like uv polar chenille. It looks like purple strands coming off of it. Don't know that that really is a factor. But, like, I figure, like, okay, there's starlight, you might have a little bit of moon, you might have a street light, something that reflects a little bit. So I'll put it on there just as like a, you know, maybe it works 10% of the time and like, if so, great, right. Rattles are definitely a good idea. The fish are picking up your flies from some type of vibration. They're not, like, always seeing them first. Sometimes they feel them first, and that rattle just gives them something else to feel.

Marvin Cash: Neat. And so talk to me a little bit about kind of like how you work through your fly box, uh, you know, fishing a particular spot.

Frank Landis: Yeah. So basically I'll go something confidence oriented, like my cat streamer that I like to fish. The reason I call it a cat is because I think it's better than a mouse and cat. Cats eat mice, so it's kind of like a play on words there because I like, I like to poo poo mouse fishing a little bit because I think it's funny. But, I fish that cat streamer, like almost always to start. And if I'm fishing a river that's dense with trout, right, I know there is like a go to fish per mile. If they're not eating that streamer, I'm going to make a change, but I'm not going to change to, like, another streamer. I'm going to change to like a mouse or something like hybrid surface fly or a wet or something different. I'm not going to go, like one streamer to a different streamer. I think that's just like your fly is your presentation sometimes. And like, I believe in changing presentations. Pushing awake is a different presentation than, you know, five foot or six inches under the water. Right. So I changed that first. I'm not changing pretty frequently. If I'm in a densely populated river with tree, a lot of shroud, if I'm in a place where I'm, like, targeting the big fish, I know there's less trout. I'm not going to change as much. I might fish that fly for hours and hours and hours knowing that I have confidence in it. And I'm not fishing for numbers. I'm trying to get that one. I'll stick with the same fly longer than I would otherwise.

Marvin Cash: Got it. And so you need to kind of get a little bit more specific, kind of on the attacking the water in the presentation. So, you know, we've scouted water, we've got our gear, we've got our flies. You know, talk to me a little bit about, you know, you get in the water kind of, how are you breaking down and attacking the water? And you know, what are your goals presenting the fly?

Frank Landis: Yeah, so, like I, like I said earlier, I'm looking for that a little bit slower water, looking for water that's adjacent to the daytime water. And then from there, like, all of my presentations are some type of, like, swing with some type of tension. You know, sometimes that is like a traditional, like, the same way you'd swing a soft tackle, cast it down and across, maybe give it a little mend, and just like, hang on and let it go. Right. That's, like, the easiest way to present a fly at night, and that actually works very well in a ton of situations. As you fish more and get a little bit better at it? You can start adding some aspects to that to kind of make your fly come alive or give it to the fish a little bit differently. Maybe you're pausing it in a certain place that's key. Maybe you're moving it. But generally speaking, I like to do minimal animations of the fly, meaning, like, I'm not, like, making that fly go crazy. You know, maybe one mend and a strip. Like a one mend and one, a good strip to bring that slack in whatever movement it gave. That's it. And I'm just going to let that fly swing. So I think less is more when it comes to the night presentation. Not necessarily doing a daytime streamer thing where you're showing an active retrieve at all. I'm not doing much of that now. Sometimes I've seen it work, you know, I've seen a good friend of mine up at the state college shop, his name is Ben. Um, one time he was stripping in a woolly bugger super fast and caught a 21, um, out of the blue. So that, to me, it was like, oh, surprising. But, uh, it just proves that different things do work. But from what I've seen, the slower presentations are your money on the big fish. Sometimes the smaller fish will keel and that fast stuff, but the night game is unknown. You know, it's like the least experimented with game. So, like, I'll say this, and then you might go out and strip that streamer in really fast and catch a big fish and say, Frank, you're wrong. And I'd be like, well, yeah, obviously, because there's hardly anyone out here doing this. So experimentation is big, and I wouldn't, you know, I have a spot where I've never caught a good fish on top. I've only ever caught them on streamers. And my buddy Alex came with me. He's like, I'm gonna try mouse. And I'm like, please try it. Like, please, please run that mouse there, because if you get them to eat on top, I want to see what you did. I want to learn, like, were you able to get them to eat that mouse? Because I haven't, you know. So I'm thinking slower presentations. I'm thinking slower water. Swinging with tension. That's the starting point. You can get in the weeds from there and things to try, but that's kind of what I'm thinking.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And then you were telling me, too, earlier in the interview that you like to kind of repeat and really cover the water thoroughly so you might hit somewhere two or three times, right?

Frank Landis: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, if I know it's like, if I know the water has the fish I'm looking for, whether that's a big fish or just, like, you know, the number of the fish. I will have no qualms, hitting it three times. Definitely changing presentation, though, might not be a bad idea. Just trying different things. Maybe you pause that fly a little longer, give it more of a dead drifter, a few feet. Or maybe you go for that fast twitch and really rip it through the water just. Just to experiment on those second and third passes, just because, you know. Yeah. Yeah, you might as well. But on the other hand, like, if I'm really confident, like, when I'm the most confident in a piece of water, I'll do the same presentation that I know works over and over again, waiting for, like, the opportunity. Because it takes fish time to see your fly. They take some time, I think, sometimes even settle into night water because they go in from there - they go from their daytime program to their nighttime program. Maybe on pass one, they weren't even there. They might have still been under the root ball, but on past three, now they're there. So you could do the same exact presentation you did on past one and catch them on past three. And I've had that happen a lot in a few places.

Marvin Cash: Neat, and so, you know, what are some common mistakes that, uh, newbies make when they start fishing at night?

Frank Landis: Yeah. The big technical mistake that's very easy to solve, like, well, easy to explain, but hard to get people to actually do, is the hook set, right. When you're swinging a fly downstream, current is taking it out, there's some tension. The less you do, sometimes the better. Sometimes these fish will hook themselves because they're going to grab that fly and turn away in some way. If you just hold your grounding, you know, grab one of that rod real tight and hang on to your cork and just wait for it. It's going to happen. Right. But one of the big mistakes we can do is lift that rod and rip that fly upwards to the way you would set for a non nymph. Right. That's not what we want to do at night. So many people are bond or nymphing. You know, you're nymphing, whatever. Or you need a fast hook set that is just like the opposite instinct that you want your near here to fall should be nothing when you feel something. And then, like, as the fish gives you more, you can then kind of give it more back, right? So, like, if this fish is sometimes, like, you'll feel it's not subsurface five, you'll feel this weird tap. If they're like, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap. It gets faster. The worst thing you can do is rip that fly out because it's not hooked. It's not even in their mouth. It's not really ready to be hooked. But as they start to swim away, that tap can get heavier and heavier. The heavier you feel something on the end of your rod, like your line, you can then give that with a little low angle with your rod, you can give that pressure back, but you can't do, you can't rush it. Right. Maybe have some slack. You have to maybe set the hook a little bit. But oftentimes we don't have slack, they have tension. So less is more. Don't lift the rod. Let the fish kind of swim away and then kind of give them the wood.

Marvin Cash: Got it. Uh, any other tips you're willing to share with our listeners tonight?

Frank Landis: I. Yeah, I mean, there's a ton. I mean, things to avoid, we've talked about it a little bit, but, like, avoid the bright lights, avoid the bright mood. You might break that rule and have some success. But, like, typically, like, time and time again, we see that's a problem. Dense fog on the surface is something to avoid. Sometimes you can't see that, so you turn your light on. Um, it can be problematic. I'm not sure why. Might affect their ability to see things close to the surface, but the fog there might just affect the way things silhouette might be a little muddier to them, sort of as I describe it, so maybe they aren't as confident to take that risk to go and eat your fly. On the same note, like, the muddy colored up water, not my favorite thing. You know, on the other hand, like, you know, when you're out there, you know, be willing to experiment. I kind of alluded to it before, but try different things. And, you know, there might be something that's specific to your water type. Like, we don't really see what they're eating at night. They might be eating something that does swim quite fast through the shallows where you're at, and maybe a fast presentation, I'm telling you to go slow, but maybe fast in here, you know, particular river, might be a good thing. So, um, we really don't see everything, so don't be afraid to try things that are a little bit off the off the program. And sometimes it does, uh, result in some success for you.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And, uh, is there anything else you want to share with our listeners before I let you go?

Frank Landis: Yeah, I mean, there's a couple little things, like, about the nature of fishing at night and, like, certain thinking, certain properties. Right. A lot of our stuff in Pennsylvania isn't, like, true public land. It's, like, private, but not private, where, like, landowners are, like, cool with fishing. They'll let people fish during the day. They have no problem with it. They won't think twice. But maybe that same landowner is not expecting someone to be walking through their cornfield at night with a flashlight on, and that might raise some red flags to them. So, like, definitely be a little courteous to the situation. You don't want to have run ins with other people at night when you can possibly avoid it, especially, like, a. A grumpy landowner or someone who's just like, you know, maybe they're freaked out that someone is poking around their land at night with a light on. So they, uh, might be open during the day, but just be mindful of that. And if you are going to try those places, maybe don't hoot and holler when you catch a big one. Or, like, don't shine your light towards people's windows when they're trying to sleep. Kind of just courteous things. Those are something else to keep in mind just so that, like, you don't lose that opportunity because, like, you know, you make someone mad or freak somebody out and they might say, no way, no one's fishing here now. It freaks me out. Like, you don't want to do that. You don't lose your. Lose your spot or lose your access. So be mindful and respectful of landowners that are out there and, uh, you know, public water, you know, like, State Forest land or something. You can be kind of less concerned with that sort of thing to let your guard down. But, um, certainly, if you're, like, dealing with private property, not a bad idea to say, hey, say you know, farmer whatever. Like, do you mind if I fish this water? I've done that before, and people don't really care. They just want to, like, be aware, that's all.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it's interesting, too, because the wrinkle when you're in a boat is, you know, you sometimes meet some very interesting people in the wee hours of the morning at boat ramps.

Frank Landis: Oh, boy. Yeah. Boat ramps, man, that's probably a magnet for the wrong crowd. People parking and doing God knows what. Yeah, definitely something.

I run into it more like I'm. When I'm fishing the Letort and, you know, we're close to, um, the PA Turnpike, we're close to interstate 81, we're close to Carlisle. Major hotels all along the tour. Shipping and stuff, like, freight stuff coming in and around, in and in and out. So, like, you get some characters and have some odd run-ins. One time I had a landowner, like, shining his light at me and thought I. Because he saw me fish. He saw me trying to. My light. I was looking for fish. And, you know, I went up to him and talked to him because I didn't want to alarm him. I said, hey, I'm just fishing. Like, so cool. And he was like, yeah, well, right before you came through, somebody on the other side was just walking around with no light, and I thought it was real weird, so I was on my guard and I saw you and I was like, well, that wasn't me because I was on the far bank. So, you know, that kind of freaked me out because, like, there was a dude right across from. I had no idea, God knows, what he was doing. Was he homeless? Was he just some dude at the hotel staying there and, just walking? Who knows what? I mean, you can't begin to guess what people are doing out there at midnight or something. So, yeah, be on your guard and be smart. You know, definitely some, uh, uh, strange situations happening, whether it's the fish or the people or anything, that's definitely something to, you know, think about, but it keeps it interesting, right?

Marvin Cash: Yeah. Fish with a buddy and carry your bear spray.

Frank Landis: Yeah, for the people, right?

Marvin Cash: Yeah, yeah. And so, Frank, if someone wanted to book a day or a night on the water with you or follow your fishing adventures, where should they go?

Frank Landis: Yeah. So you can hit me up on Instagram, my Instagram handle is, @frankflyfishes. But then you can also call if you don't have. You're not on Instagram, you could call, like, any of our TCO locations. I'm down in Boiling Springs. I'm a guide there through Relentless Fly Fishing. Mostly I do run, like, the occasional odd trip for state college when they're overbooked. So you could call them, and they know me up there, too. So call one of the TCO shops and ask for me, or hit me up directly on social, and I will get it, uh, squared away.

Marvin Cash: Uh, very cool. Well, I appreciate you spending some time with me this evening and helping me as I go more and more down the rat hole about fishing at night for big trout.

Frank Landis: Awesome, man. It was great. It was fun.

Marvin Cash: Um, absolutely. Take care.

Frank Landis: Hey, man, have a good one.

Marvin Cash: We hope you enjoyed the interview as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. Please consider making a donation@nc.govgov/donate. And don't forget to check out trout routes pro at maps.troutroutes.com use artfly20, all one word, to get 20% off of your membership. Tight lines, everybody.