Transcript: Casting Angles with Mac Brown
Transcript
Marvin:
[0:04] Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of the Articulate Fly and we're back with another Casting Angles with Mack Brown. How you doing Mack?
Mac:
[0:11] I'm doing great. How are you doing Marvin?
Marvin:
[0:14] As always, I'm just trying to stay out of trouble and I know you guys got a little shot of rain I guess last weekend and probably a little bit in the last couple of days. Is your water situation improving any in Bryson City?
Mac:
[0:26] Oh yeah, the tuck got a little bit muddy. It's still a little bit muddy today, but Deep Creek and all the park streams seem to be back to normal already.
I think it was about an inch and a half of rain Sunday.
Sunday's what we got, so everything's back to normal except the tuck.
It's a little bit muddy still.
Marvin:
[0:46] Yeah, that's good because I know Saturday I was over at Kevin Howell's event at Davidson River, and I mean it was pretty dry in Brevard, and I mean I think the Davidson was at 50 some CFS and you know water temperatures were moving you know easily up into the upper 60s when it would warm up.
Mac:
[1:02] Right yeah we really needed the rain here we've been about three weeks I think it's close to three weeks it was dry with no precip so I'm really glad it finally came down and rained a little bit Sunday.
Marvin:
[1:15] And so I would imagine you're probably seeing some pretty good hatches right?
Mac:
[1:19] We still got some caddis and a little bit of There's a little bit of blue wings still going on out on the river, and down here on Deep Creek as well, and that's really the main two things, and of course we're getting into terrestrial season, so starting to throw some beetles and ants and things like that down here on the creek below us, and been really good up top.
We had a lot of cloudy days even though we didn't get the rain.
The last week or so we had probably 80% of those days overcast.
You know, it tricked us a lot. We'd would hear thunder and sound like it's going to rain and then it would skip everywhere in Western Carolina.
So yeah, the, the dry fly game up top has been really good. Yeah.
Marvin:
[2:00] Time to crack out that chartreuse, uh, San Juan worm, right?
Mac:
[2:05] Oh yeah. The, the, the mop fly is going to be, it's already, it's already good on that. Now, like it's, it's been, there's a lot of, there's already a lot of them hanging off the trees. Yeah. So that actually is a really good choice right now.
Marvin:
[2:18] Yeah. And, you know, one of the things we wanted to talk about, like we do kind of away from the fishing is talking about kind of a philosophy about simplifying your time on the water and being more effective and kind of what that looks like, right?
And you know, kind of how to help people, because I think you and I talked actually earlier today about how people are kind of prone to try to memorize a bunch of stuff to do, and it doesn't make them very agile and effective because they kind of learn the, wrong thing to do at the wrong time, right?
Mac:
[2:48] That's right. Yeah, just from simple observation, I think that's what, yeah, that's what got us on that topic a little bit this morning, It's just the people that have influenced.
I know me and my lifetime are really what I would deem naturalist, even going back to my grandfather.
He was very, very observant, and he's always talking about the little things of observation that are actually the big things, that help solve the big things, you know?
And I think those things are, they're out every day, even before we get on the water, you know, with fronts and lunar phases, water levels, just all these things, temperature, all these things, if we don't pay attention to those things, we're kind of spinning our wheels.
Marvin:
[3:30] Yeah, and they kind of pull back out of that. I know this is something that you do when you work with the kids on the youth fly fishing team, is like you kind of start with kind of building a process, right?
That's right. And so it's not like you don't go to the water and do the same thing every time, but you try to run a very similar process every time.
Mac:
[3:48] That's right, of what what we change and when we change.
And I think the observation also gives us good feedback before we ever, you know, rig up.
And even like the conditions going to the river, just driving and what you see, you know, is smoke rising or falling?
Are cows laying down? Are they standing up feeding? All those little clues are already kind of telling you what the fish are gonna be probably doing before you even get to the river and rig up. Then you get to the river, rather than just rig up right away, spend a few minutes and look at the water.
You know, find a deep run, look at the different water types, and then kind of pay attention to that observation.
If it looks like, hey, nothing's going on, well then where are you gonna start?
I mean, then it comes back, is it clear, cloudy, all these other things that help make up that decision. But those are all, you know, back to the naturalist approach.
And I think that that's what gives people big, big advantage when they start off. And then in other words, you're trying to start out with the right thing, not have to work a process of 10 things because we were clueless to the process.
Does that kind of, does that kind of resonate?
Marvin:
[4:59] Yeah, it does. I mean, it kind of reminds me a little bit of the talk I put together for the fly fishing shows where I was trying to kind of give kind of beginning and intermediate anglers kind of a framework to kind of start the process.
And you know what I would say, you know, we kind of went through the seasons to talk about, you know, what's the trout doing. Right. And what's the food doing, so what should you do, right?
And that's just a real, that's just a simple way for people to, you know, not, you know, go do the same thing they did in February when they fished the same spot in June and wonder why it didn't work.
Mac:
[5:32] That's right. Yeah. That's, that's kind of the way I think people start to pick up on it as well. You know, by trying to do the same thing, cause it worked last time or last season.
Then it didn't work. And then they start to think, maybe I did something wrong.
And then they talk to somebody or fish with somebody that.
It might have got it right and then start going. Well, how'd you know that?
I think that I think all those trips to the river You know help formulate I'm, not I mean everybody has a different process for sure, but I think when you look at the really really successful Um anglers, I think the third process is actually very similar even though it might be in a different order, but it's a very similar mechanism they work through, Yeah, and it's interesting too because you and I've talked about this a lot on multiple occasions about trying to focus on, you know, why we're doing what we're doing, right?
Marvin:
[6:25] So, you know, I don't know, we were talking about, I guess, earlier today, you know, like someone says, well, how do you fish a mouse pattern?
I'm like, well, what does a mouse look like when it falls in the water, right?
That's right. Or, you know, as opposed to like trying to memorize, As you know, leader formulas understand that, you know, extruded leaders are not bad, but you got to understand that you kind of get those things get pushed around because they're fatter at the top where the water's faster, right?
That's right. And trying to think about the whys, you know, keeps you from having to memorize a bunch of stuff, right?
And you don't have a framework so it's hard to remember too.
Mac:
[7:06] That's right. Yeah, I think leaders have been, I know we weren't supposed to go in the rabbit hole of leaders, but that's probably the most misunderstood or intimidating thing in our sport to people.
And really the reality of leaders can be simplified real easy.
I think a lot of pride egos came up with all these different leaders that, you know, their leader's the best or this leader's the best.
It's really, really simple in that just energy either transfers or dissipates.
One of those two choices. Now, which, how do you design that?
And that's what I think people need to know, is how do you make it transfer more effectively? How do you dissipate that energy, you know, for slack?
And once people understand that, I think that's really the, I mean, I think everything has a simple, simple way to make it work without trying to memorize 50 formulas, you know?
Marvin:
[7:55] ISKRA Yeah, I think there's a lot to be said. It's interesting because I just interviewed Kevin Howell not too long ago and we were I think we're literally within an age of being a year being the same age and You know talking about the difference about like, you know, there was no internet, right?
You learned from people and you went to library, but the big way you learned is you had to experiment That's right.
Mac:
[8:15] You had to experiment and make a lot of things. I remember yeah, I mean, I think people Really the people that are around our age Marvin grew up to that time period where when there wasn't something available then You know, we made it, and we still make a lot of things like that just because those things weren't available.
You know, and nowadays, everything's available. Does that make it simpler?
Does that make it more difficult for the choices, you know?
Marvin:
[8:41] Yeah, I think, too. I mean, I think some of that kind of experimenting and kind of rolling up your sleeves, it makes the knowledge that you gain stickier, right?
It's kind of like the difference between reading War and Peace and reading the Cliff Notes for War and Peace.
Mac:
[8:57] Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think it's like to go through it, doing experimentation and come up with what worked and what didn't work has to be, you know, that process of observation has to be more powerful when you've actually done the work, rather than somebody just tells you, Marvin, do this.
I don't think that's as powerful.
Then you might get a turn. You'd be like, what'd he say?
But if you've already done the work, it's a whole lot easier because you know how it works. Yeah.
Marvin:
[9:25] And I think, yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, the one, the reason I kind of liked that trout food, you framework, as I tried to explain to people in the talks that, you know, it wasn't just for trout, right.
You know, if you, if you want to go fish for redfish, like, you know, what's their behavior at this particular time of year and conditions and what's the food doing.
And so if you have a decent idea of what you think the fish are doing and what the food's doing, then you, you're in a lot better place to figure out how to present your flies, right.
Because the whole secret is to present the flies so they look like food.
Mac:
[9:58] Oh yeah, that's for sure. It's like all this is transferable to anything as far as fishing and even a lot of other things in life.
But one of them that comes to mind for me is little John Dietz from Pennsylvania.
He's on the professional Bassmasters Tour and he's been real successful at winning a lot of these big tournaments.
He was one of the members of the youth team, you know, years ago, and he's just, he majored in fisheries, and now that he's applying all the same things he learned from trout and doing it with bass, and it's exactly what you're saying. There's a process, what he's doing for the bass fishing.
Marvin:
[10:36] Yeah, so someone thinks this is kind of interesting and they want to try it, kind of what would be a way for them to kind of work this into their current fishing system.
Mac:
[10:46] Probably early on is to keep a notebook. I mean, that's what I did a lot, I mean, for years. And then after a while, you don't need the notebook because you've done enough times of records of water temp and all these different observations and how you start to see the big picture.
And then you just kind of know it in your head.
But I think when, you know, I look at my kids, like Duncan's 14 now, and he's gone out a lot, but he's not kept a journal yet.
I think it'll be much more powerful once he keeps his own journal from his thought processes and looks at it and get something out of that. I think that'll help them more so than just trying to memorize what dad told them.
Marvin:
[11:23] Yeah, and I think the other thing too is to, you know, this kind of comes back to some things we've talked about before, to like, you know, practice with deliberation.
So when you fish, you know, sometimes I'll go out and I'll say, well, I wanna work on this one thing, right?
Mac:
[11:39] Right.
Marvin:
[11:39] And then, you know, because sometimes too, right, you're collecting too much data and you can't find a pattern you're not basically doing an experiment, right?
Right. And so, sometimes I'll spend time just saying, oh, like, I don't know, like, when I was, uh, wanted to be a better tightline nymph, I said, well, that's going to be probably one of the only ways I nymph this season, right?
Just to get better at it and, like, you know, work on, like, you know, casting the rigs, tracking the rigs, all those types of things.
I mean, and so, those are things that people can do too to kind of get better.
It's kind of like, you know, you say, well, I'm playing golf and then I say, I'm sorry, but you're working on your short game or something like that and trying to be a little bit more consistent because it's really, you know, there's just no substitute for getting You can read a lot of books, but at some point you got to do it.
Mac:
[12:32] Oh yeah, and I think that's a good point about having a different goal in that process is really the key to the fundamental success that everybody's looking for is, because I do believe this of all the years being on the water guiding, when somebody does something over and over and they're not getting the desired result, I think what happens is, I notice this a lot too over the years, is people that are real confident and good anglers, They very rarely do something over and over the same way.
Like every time they do it, there's a different twist of what they're doing.
And that's how they're finding that success. And so I think that that's probably the biggest, you know, thing since we're talking about observation and being a naturalist is not to sit there and do the same thing over and over expecting a different result.
And I think that's what a lot of people do that hadn't figured it out yet.
I mean, just think, I mean, I don't mean to sound negative, but look at the amount of bobber fishing going on in America.
If we're just gonna throw a bobber and hope for the best, how could we ever get to that point?
Marvin:
[13:35] Yeah, I get it.
Mac:
[13:38] Yeah, so I think that resonates kind of with me. It's like that's what we're seeing now more days. Of course, we never saw that. I never saw that as a kid.
But now that's kind of what the industry as a whole, I think, has really grasped that. And that's what you see. It's not just North Carolina.
I mean, it's in Montana. It's everywhere.
Colorado, you see it all over.
So, what's that say about, I guess what I'm saying, Marvin, is that a progression helping the sport or is that a regression?
I'll leave that up to the listeners.
I won't say what I think, but I think that's a good question to ask.
Marvin:
[14:20] Yeah. And you know, folks, we love questions on the articulate fly.
So, if there's something you want me to talk about with Mac, just shoot me an email, DM me on social media.
Social media, happy to cover it. And, you know, Mac, I know you won't be doing any week-long guide schools until the fall, but I know you've got kind of skill schools going on throughout the summer. Is there any of that kind of good stuff you want to share with folks? You want to tell folks how to find you so they can book you and fish with you?
Mac:
[14:45] Well, there's a bunch of, uh, different weekend dates designed through the summer for, for different topics from wet fly to dry fly clinics to nymphing clinics, and that they can find that info on the website, mikebrownflyfish.com.
That's probably the easiest place to go because that's where I usually put the dates. I don't really post that much about social media with it.
Marvin:
[15:08] Got it. And what if they want to book you, uh, book you for a day on the water, same thing or a casting lesson? Yeah.
Mac:
[15:14] Yeah. I'm doing a lot of casting lessons this time of year and I like doing that.
It's quite a bit through the summer months as well, because when it gets warmer and I think a lot of them are wanting to go do a saltwater trip and things like casting into the wind and trying to get better distance, that tends to be one of the more popular things in the summer.
Yeah, that we do. So yeah, the same website, but that's how they can get ahold of me. Yeah.
Marvin:
[15:37] And it gets hot. So you'll either be doing those early in the morning or late in the evening. Right.
Mac:
[15:42] That's right.
Marvin:
[15:43] Yeah.
Mac:
[15:43] We're about to go on the early, early morning schedule. I mean, we're already been going up, you know, pretty early. We're going out the door around daylight, which I love going out early at daylight because you pretty much have the whole water to yourself.
And even with trips, I mean, I'm done by, I guess I'm doing the hoot owl thing already. And I just like being out early and being done early.
Because once it gets hot, that's not my cup of tea once it gets hot.
Marvin:
[16:10] Not your jam. Well, you know, listen, folks, if you want to take a class or get a casting lesson or get on the water with Mack, check out MackBrownFlyfish.com.
And before it gets crazy hot and we have to leave the trout alone, you owe it to yourself to get out there and catch it for you.
Tight lines, everybody. Tight lines, Mac. Tight lines, Marvin.